poll for (ex-)SML members

[Asashosakari]

I've been somewhat fascinated by the latest round of nostalgic navel-gazing over at the sumo mailing list, and while I appreciate the continued supply of future snark material, I do wish the remaining list members were to manage to figure out a fruitful direction for the list some way even if I have no interest in being a part of it. Anyway, for those who aren't even lurking there: the issue du jour is whether list moderation of some type (either individual post approval or simply general oversight, the latter being what we have here on the forum) would be sufficient to revive the list and, more importantly, help to bring back some of the many people who have quit the list over the last couple of years. So as per this suggestion/request:

[quote name='J

[Hashira]

I've been subscribed to the SML on and off for 5+ years, and can't remember if i've ever posted anything

a look to the left will show that i'm mostly a lurker here as well- though quite a well-read lurker

i'm subscribed to the SML now only because I can, with free webmail services now having nearly unlimited storage and easy and effective filter tools to keep my general inbox free of SML or Bench related bickering, but i only check the SML maybe once between basho and occassionaly during

i voted "Moderation won't cure what ails the SML, and I'm not coming back anyway" as i see the problem to be just the format of the mailing list. i find it much more convenient to come here and see news, photos, commentary, etc on one page, and everything tidily sorted into topics. the members of this forum also seem to be much more technically savvy, so there is more likely to be links to videos, online news reports, etc.

personal attacks and such are present on both forums, but having never been the target of one, it doesn't bother me too much

in the conversation on the SML, people are mentioning not being able to post on here even though they are members, or having to "jump through hoops", does anyone know what this is about? as far as I can tell the only hoops to jump through before posting are to sign up, log in and press reply. seems pretty simple to me, not much different than signing in to your email and then pressing reply. is this just a case of laziness/newfanglobia, or am I missing something?

edit: i wanted to add that i joined both SF and SML at around the same time, and way back then there was plenty of unique information on both ( i can't remember which had more, but looking at my member # i reckon that perhaps the SML had more numbers and hence more information ?), but now there is simply very little to be found on the SML that does not appear on SF, and very much of the opposite, so it's just not worth the time

Edited September 5, 2008 by Hashira

[wanchanyama]

I first joined the SML in 1996, and enjoyed great times with posts covering all sorts of information. I resisted joining the forum for a couple of years, not wanting to move on with the times. Unfortunately, the SML is a mere shell of its former glory, and will never return to what it was once. Times change and we move on. I'm glad I was part of it, however, there are very few interesting posts on the SML these days.

[Sasanishiki]

I joined the SML a couple of months after joining this forum. I found that initially there was enough difference in the material posted to keep me interested. However, as the better posters moved to also being here (Jonosuke stands out as a notable figure) I found that the SML really did not deliver, and that a lot of what I was getting from SML was the "me too" kind of response. That can be easily jumped over here but when it is a separate email you expect more as you open it.

I guess the only person I wish would join here is Katrina Watts. I'm not sure if she still posts over on SML but I am in contact with her anyway. I used to enjoy Doreen's stuff but then she became quite annoying always stating how busy whe was, as if no one else had other things to do!! I guess the straw that broke the camel's back was when there was a huge jingoistic discussion about the US military and people serving their country. I did not need some of the redneck views that came out clogging up my inbox so I left. I admit that there was a little void for a while because I was not getting results in front of me in my inbox each morning, but that soon passed. I now do not look back to consider what I might be missing as I believe I am not missing anything. I find the SF far easier to navigate and generally a far more pleasant environment ot inhabit.

I think some moderation might help SML but that would be a huge job. It would certainly not draw me back as I have moved on.

[Murakami]

In german, die SML die. In English, the SML THE!

[Zentoryu]

I was a member of the SML from way back in 1996/97, but recently quit at the end of the Nagoya basho this past July. I held on for nostalgic purposes, but finally bit the bullet and gave up. There just isn't anything unique there anymore. Most of the sumo related news and stuff is usually cross posted from the forum.

It won't make a difference to me whether the list is moderated or not, I won't be going back. To me, the SML has long since outlived its usefulness.

Edited September 5, 2008 by Zentoryu

[Murakami]

And the name of the nice girl on your avatar is?

[Asojima]

The forum best suits my needs. I enjoy the informality and extemporaneous nature of the forum exchanges. I have basically given up on the SML because it only rarely provided me substantive information that was not more immediately available on the forum in a more readable format. I have been loosely monitoring the SML for the last year or so. With few exceptions, the posts have been limited to the match results for the current basho, uninformed rants about the latest sumo scandal, and stones cast at those who want to provide meaningful information about sumo. The contributors who might interest me have been driven away. So, from my perspective, the fix is to moderate the tone of the posts to reduce the level of ranting and to reattract the contributors who will provide the type of inforamtion I am interested in. I'm not throwing stones. I am simply stating what the SML could do to regain my personal interest.

Edited September 5, 2008 by Asojima

[Kintamayama]

I spent the best years of my sumo life on the SML. I owe the list and some of its members big time. The problem is that all those members are here at present so there is no point being in two places at one time. I also had some personal problems with some members of the list. As you know,I have no problems with personal problems with people, but then I was accused of being everything, which even for a "geek" like me, was too much.

I have mostly great memories form the SML. I would have voted "Change most of the current members", but that was not an option, so I voted like the majority so far- that I'm not going back, moderation or not.

If I were still there, I'd vehemently be against any sort of moderation.

[Hashira]

personal attacks and such are present on both forums, but having never been the target of one, it doesn't bother me too much

Your kid is ugly.

There you go. Happy to help. :-O

thank you

now i belong

[Jakusotsu]

I'm receiving the digest version of the SML. That's one email per day (or even less in recent times) to amuse me about people enjoying the dancing shadows in their cave. Perhaps we should dub it the Amish List.

[sekihiryu]

A tedious antiquated format, the SML has had it's day and that day has gone, I have long given up on it. Even great sumo minds who only post there are seemingly slipping: the quality of the offerings of one well known senior sumo writer in a Kansai based magazine have been declining considerably this year.

[ilovesumo]

The Forum is so much better.

I am here since I was about 17, grew up with it.

It's so much more familial an has more dimensions. I need emotions to express myself when the language ability is too weak,

I like having Avatars, pictures in the posts etc.

The SML is like an old MS DOS prog. I can't say how much I hated DOS....am a visual person I guess, my very first PC had Win 95.

No mouse or touchpad - I have to give up.

I only miss a few persons here like Doreen, J.K... who only post at the SML.

With those people here- no need for the SML at all. Put it in our archives and go on here...

[Doitsuyama]

Seems to me like a lot of members haven't really realized that Doreen actually is in the forum lately - with frequent contributions to boot. No mention of being too busy though yet which is nice.

(Going kyujo...)

I would like to say more about the SML topic but the less said the better. Besides, I am too busy working, and my flight is going in a few hours.

:-O

[Jonosuke]

I still have lurker friends on SML. I also miss Katrina here but not at all of anything else there.

All the people I respect and like have moved here and I simply find no reason to go back. I left the list after seeing Kinta and Doitsu san leaving the list permanently (the two essential individuals I felt the list could not do without).

Frankly I have no idea why someone could not join here but I understand most people there read the forum anyway if not contribute already.

In my view the biggest problem of the list is they cannot skip the noises from certain members whom I find why they even follow Ozumo as they appear to see nothing good about sumo and make it like an Asashoryu fan club.

I guess any list is organic so with new members coming and old members going, it may alter its character and offer a reason to go back.

[Asashosakari]

I would have voted "Change most of the current members", but that was not an option

Technically, that's covered by option three. :-O

[Randomitsuki]

The problem with most platforms for exchanging opinions (especially on a fringe topic like Sumo) is that their operation and fate usually rest on very few shoulders. Without providing names I'd say that there are less than 10 contributors on this Forum who basically run the show. Take one of them away, and the Forum suffers significantly. Take three or four away, and the Forum will be all but dead.

That's why I think it's in the best interest to keep those front-runners at this place. Enter moderation. I must admit that as a moderator I carefully observe the "levels of unease" that the key figures on this Forum publicly display. Of course, they are all different, and some even like it when things get controversial. But generally speaking, I have observed that two types of posters bear the potential to drive valuable members away. The first type of annoying posters are flamers. They are usually new in a place, relatively uninformed, but love to pick a fight at every opportunity. Moderation is basically for such people. You warn them until they are banned - just yesterday we had a member who managed to be banned just 15 minutes (!) after joining the Forum. However, flamers shouldn't be taken lightly. You have too many of them running around, and you'll get into trouble.

Since the SML is among the most civilized communities I've ever seen on the Net (and probably doesn't get that many new members anyway), there is no need to "mod off" such idiots.

The second type of posters are much more difficult to handle. They cause general annoyance and an unhealthy discussion climate without ever breaking any rules set by moderation. Usually they have exactly one MO and they follow it overly strictly, thus adding tedium and complete predictability to being a nuisance. Their posts usually draw the most replies, and they can be identified by never changing their MO even when everybody else expresses their indignation. Why should they change their ways when they behave within the bounds? And that's a problem: whatever your moderation policy is - you can't really do something about them.

You can only hope that they leave before the key contributors do.

[Mark Buckton]

I only miss a few persons here like Doreen, J.K... who only post at the SML.

With those people here- no need for the SML at all. Put it in our archives and go on here...

both are here (In a state of confusion...) :-) (In a state of confusion...)

[Jejima]

I only miss a few persons here like Doreen, J.K... who only post at the SML.

With those people here- no need for the SML at all. Put it in our archives and go on here...

both are here (In a state of confusion...) :-) (In a state of confusion...)

Perhaps ILS means Joe Klemmer (current host for the SML) rather than Joe Kuroda?

Edited September 6, 2008 by Jejima

[Mark Buckton]

gotcha. hmmmm?

[Manekineko]

Well, I'm still a SML member. Nostalgia for better days, I suppose, and not enough impetus to unsubscribe, plus a forlorn hope that something interesting may spring up there again. I am mostly a simple lurker on the ML, anyway, which is refreshing. Since as a Forum mod I cannot enjoy watching incipient flame-wars/bickerings here, I can satisfy that inclination on the ML. (In a state of confusion...)

ps. No, I don't think moderation on the list would help it any.

[ilovesumo]

I only miss a few persons here like Doreen, J.K... who only post at the SML.

With those people here- no need for the SML at all. Put it in our archives and go on here...

both are here (In a state of confusion...) :-) :-)

Perhaps ILS means Joe Klemmer (current host for the SML) rather than Joe Kuroda?

Jep. Just couldn't remember if his Name was Klemme or Klemmer, so I used the initials :-)

[Kuramarujo]

A tedious antiquated format, the SML has had it's day and that day has gone, I have long given up on it. Even great sumo minds who only post there are seemingly slipping: the quality of the offerings of one well known senior sumo writer in a Kansai based magazine have been declining considerably this year.

With one click of your mouse you can read the list in the same style as the forum. Or use various 'Net tools to have the list presented in a forum format. For me, the forum format is far to unwieldy and splintered to use. IP.Board seems to be fairly decent but it's still to disjointed for my data input style.

As for the poll and going back to the list, that's up to each individual user. I would like to throw out there that there is a way for the information content providers to make sure that they have their stuff on both formats with little or no effort and never have to actually read or participate in the list. You can be subscribed as a post only member. Your messages go to the list but none of the list goes to you. I can even set this up with a double blind setup so that not only will your posts be unidirectional but your email addresses will be hidden from the list so no one can reply directly to you. Just let me know privately.

[Kuramarujo]

I only miss a few persons here like Doreen, J.K... who only post at the SML.

With those people here- no need for the SML at all. Put it in our archives and go on here...

both are here

Perhaps ILS means Joe Klemmer (current host for the SML) rather than Joe Kuroda?

Technically I'm here, too. At least I'm a member. I usually check in once every blue moon or so but for me it's to much effort to try and participate in a discussion or thread on a forum due to it being all scattered and stuff. I process better if everything is in one place in a chronological order. Maybe it was all those years doing COBOL programming. :-P

[Kuramarujo]

The SML is like an old MS DOS prog. I can't say how much I hated DOS....am a visual person I guess, my very first PC had Win 95.

My first computer was a mini about 6 feet tall and 2 feet square. We had to use TTY's to code paper tape for writing programs. Ah, the fun we had. I could break into someone elses TTY and make it type all kinds of $#!t out. The first real program I wrote was in BASIC. It would build ICBM's then launch them randomly from different places on the page. ;-)