What will the Kyokai do now - Roho and Hakurozan Issue?

[Otokonoyama]

http://www.medience.co.jp/english/doping/index.html

Think so...

[Hananotaka]

Edit: And looking at the article again, I think the reference to the 14th day was actually about shonichi on Sep 14, not Day 14. Sigh...can we please go back to not having any tournaments starting on the 14th? Trying again to get (１４日初日の秋場所入場券は、すでに千秋楽が完売。) correct: Senshuraku completely sold out, shonichi down to general admission tickets. (Of course, that's also somewhat contradicted by the graphic above...)

Try, "Tickets for the Aki Basho, which starts (初日) on the 14th, are sold out for Senshuraku." It doesn't mention tickets for any other day than Senshuraku.

[Skotkotaikai]

http://mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnews/news/200809...0na006000c.html

Ye :( Here is the news in some newspaper.

Btw I think they are innocent. Maybe they visited Wakanoho, he smoke and they were breathing the fumes. I bet noone thought of this. If they tell this Kitanoumi he may free them of all charges :/ (Holiday feeling...)

Edited September 6, 2008 by Skotkotaikai

[Kintamayama]

Well, as reported above, black, or positive, or however you may choose to call it- the results of the second urine tests are in. In any case. Kitanoumi rijicho is now repeating his mantra that he would not settle for these results and will look elsewhere for a "third opinion". The main question is when will he be satisfied.

And Rohou? "I definitely say the results are mistaken. I have never done hash or marijuana. I love sumo,and I just want to go and do sumo with vigor.", he said. "He says he didn't do it, and I believe him. I'd like other tests to be done, and we are willing to be tested by the police as well!", said his Oyakata Ootake, ex-Takatouriki. "We will be watching the Kyokai's move and taking it from there..", said their lawyer. The lawyer is saying now that the Oyakata were told that A) the tests will be anonymous, and B), they will be arbitrary and not all the samples will be tested. "What happened in the end was unfair towards the rikishi..", said the lawyer who suddenly materialized from nowhere.

The police, OTOH, are saying that these test results are being taken seriously and it is more than possible they will be investigating this case more closely from here on.

Rohou at the press conference this morning:

Ootake, Ben Goshi the lawyer probably,and Rohou:

Edited September 6, 2008 by Kintamayama

[Kintamayama]

Btw I think they are innocent. Maybe they visited Wakanoho, he smoke and they were breathing the fumes. I bet noone thought of this. If they tell this Kitanoumi he may free them of all charges :/ (Holiday feeling...)

No one, except the vast majority of our forum, and it was discussed at length, sir..

[Skotkotaikai]

Btw I think they are innocent. Maybe they visited Wakanoho, he smoke and they were breathing the fumes. I bet noone thought of this. If they tell this Kitanoumi he may free them of all charges :/ (Holiday feeling...)

No one, except the vast majority of our forum, and it was discussed at length, sir..

Ye such things happen :D Nvm.

[Kotoviki]

I once bought shaving foam instead of hair mousse (Sigh...) - such things happen.

The same thing happened with Hakurozan.

No, Hakurozan got Nair Hair remover I guess! (Holiday feeling...)

[Mark Buckton]

what do you think will happen now Vicki?

[Otokonoyama]

Kyodo's English report, via Japan Today:

http://www.japantoday.com/category/crime/v...-back-to-russia

[Asashosakari]

"We will be watching the Kyokai's move and taking it from there..", said their lawyer. The lawyer is saying now that the Oyakata were told that A) the tests will be anonymous, and B), they will be arbitrary and not all the samples will be tested. "What happened in the end was unfair towards the rikishi..", said the lawyer who suddenly materialized from nowhere.

Uh, somebody should tell him to read this thread. I'd say it's been pretty well hashed out (no pun intended) that this particular test was not part of the performance-enhancement testing regimen, which is the only thing that was supposed to be handled under those guidelines. How unfair that they didn't announce the additional surprise test beforehand... The brothers can thank Wakanoho for getting himself arrested, or this test would never have taken place.

(New defense now that the retest is positive: "My client thought they would only be testing for steroids, so he had no reasonable expectation of being busted for pot instead...")

Edited September 6, 2008 by Asashosakari

[Kaikitsune Makoto]

Rijicho's comment that "They say they are innocent 1000%. I believe them!" and then demanding more and more tests to get a negative result is out of this world. Kyokai obviously approved that these urine tests are taken (and wasn't it so that urine tests were taken from all sekitori?? in which case I don't understand why Roho and Hakurozan had to spend more time there when others had left for food, pachinko, nap or entertainment of other nature), what is the fuss over the results? Of course Kitanoumi is not bright and he wants to keep on to his power. He is only an ex-rikishi and now rijicho. Outside Kakkai he is nothing but a uneducated, simple man with no powerful status. What is it with these oyakata anyway? Many seem totally lost when crisis hits. Takasago was utterly lost when Shoryu had his mental era and Kitanoumi looks more and more tragicomic.

If urine tests were made on all sekitori and only Hakurozan and Roho tested positive on THC, it is against all probability laws that this would have been due to some "pain killer". Roho's back has been in bad shape for a long time and his back will never heal most likely so he might well be on some less orthodox medication but Marinol...very unlikely and Hakurozan most likely isn't receiving such anyway.

The most interesting case will be when roids and stuff are tested. If they do that without prior notification, it will give massive amounts of positive results for sure. I am 100% sure all oyakata know that rikishi use these a lot as they themselves have been full of those in their active time. This is such a play for the "public" that it is funny. When it was up to Kyokai only, it was easy to make these ridiculous excuses that "we had problems with setting up a procedure so we cancel the tests for now" and when results were in, they wouldn't have been published at all. But if other authoritative bodies will intervene and tests are somehow out of Kyokai control, then it will change sumo. Same masking agents come into play that are common in other sports and Balco like things will start appearing. For now oozumo has been free ground for any performance enhancing substances and of course rikishi use those as much as possible to gain the major benefits from those. In this sense these THC things are miniscule in significance. They are signifiant due to the hypocracy and/or strict Japanese law but sport-wise they have no significance in sumo but roids are essential part of it. Interesting times ahead.

[Kotoviki]

Hi Mark,

I wish I could or knew what to say!

It is a difficult situation for me as Roho's Tsukebito is one of my best friends and Hakurozan and I are friends.

So I do not want to really speculate.. (Shaking head...)

I personally do not know anything about anyone using drugs so I can't say..

(wait I mean personally know anyone in this decade using drugs.. many of my HS and Univ friends did "things" but I was honestly scared to death of my mother to try anything including a regular cigarette! LOL)

So I just want to wait and see what happens myself as well.

To be honest my biggest concern right now is my other friends at both heyas who are stressed out by the media/police circus outside. They used to play catch and badminton in the street and walk between the two heya and eat together but they are holed up inside and it can not be an environment conducive to prepare for the honbasho! That to me is really sad.

On the other hand at least nobody is left at Magaki! (Sigh...) I drove by there Thursday looked like a ghost town! What a relief for them!

Personally I just want to look forward to the basho and I am disappointed any rikishi are involved in stupid things and worried that the sumo environment will suffer.

I hope that there are enough rikishi left to have the basho... (Holiday feeling...) I mean what else can happen in a week!?

[Kintamayama]

Hold it, everyone.. Oonishi doping expert is now saying that the positive result is from test A, and that test B has not been finished yet, and that they hope the results will be announced by Monday. He was backed up by the anti-doping committee chairman Isenoumi Oyakata. Now I'm really confused. They said in the morning that the second test was positive as well, but now..

[Kaikitsune Makoto]

Hold it, everyone.. Oonishi doping expert is now saying that the positive result is from test A, and that test B has not been finished yet, and that they hope the results will be announced by Monday. He was backed up by the anti-doping committee chairman Isenoumi Oyakata. Now I'm really confused. They said in the morning that the second test was positive as well, but no

Probably so that the "second test positive" meant that the urine sample of Roho and Hakurozan that gave the positive reaction in the "kit test" were examined with more sophisticated methods and that is the A-test. Then the B-test is the verification of the result of A-test, just like in other sports where they often say that "we can't comment yet as only A-test is positive so far" but in 99% of the cases the B-test will be positive too if A was too.

[Jejima]

Hold it, everyone.. Oonishi doping expert is now saying that the positive result is from test A, and that test B has not been finished yet, and that they hope the results will be announced by Monday. He was backed up by the anti-doping committee chairman Isenoumi Oyakata. Now I'm really confused. They said in the morning that the second test was positive as well, but now..

I'm guessing that this just means that they are following the standard procedure (WADA standards?). They have been given the urine samples to test, and divide them into 'A' and 'B' samples (totally independent of the initial test-kit sample).

The 'A' test has proved positive, and therefore they will now do the 'B' test. This will almost certainly confirm the 'A' sample. I'm not sure of the exact percentage of 'B' tests contradicting 'A' tests for athletes and drugs, but I think that it is very close to zero.

Therefore, the 'second' test has produced a positive result, but they are now awaiting the results of the 'B' test which is either the second test (from the 'WADA' approved lab) or the third test, depending on how you view it....

[Jonosuke]

Both tests were done from the same samples that Roho and Hakurozan gave at the unannounced testing at the Rikishi Kai meeting on September 2.. As Jejima indicated that the sample was divided into two - A and B. The second testing only used A. The result of Sample B will come on September 7. But it is still from the same sample.

Edit: Prof Onishi said their result from the A sample should not have been made public as the final determination is made only after checking Sample B. If Sample B turns positive then the final result is positive but if not, then the result will be judged negative. He insists it's impossible to have procedural error.

Neither Roho and Hakurozan have provided any new sample since.

I don't believe we heard the end of this as the Kyokai lawer Shiotani said, "Even if the second testing showed positive, it will be difficult to prove they "inhaled" it willingly. After their first testing, their names have been publicized and we cannot deny of prejudicial outcome. It basically lacks in fairness,"

Both are asking for another testing using a new sample Otake oyakata is insisting they should now ask for the new testing at another laboratory.

As long as both rikishi are pleading innocence, the Kyokai may find it difficult to dismiss them.

Edited September 6, 2008 by Jonosuke

[Kaikitsune Makoto]

Neither Roho and Hakurozan have provided any new sample since.

I don't believe we heard the end of this as the Kyokai lawer Shiotani said, "Even if the second testing showed positive, it will be difficult to prove they "inhaled" it willingly. After their first testing, their names have been publicized and we cannot deny of prejudicial outcome. It basically lacks in fairness,"

Both are asking for another testing using a new sample Otake oyakata is insisting they should now ask for the new testing at another laboratory.

As long as both rikishi are pleading innocence, the Kyokai may find it difficult to dismiss them.

Well lawyers' job is to offer desperate attempts too. What prejudical outcome? Interpretation of the urine samples is not exactly affected by whatever prejudice or so. New sample is equally odd attempt as that proves nothing even if it is super clean. Naturally they haven't smoked since the surprise test and so they would just have better chances to get a clean result in new sample. Also I very much doubt the labs testing doping would not have equal status amongst labs ie. certification and quality demands etc.

Pleading innocence has something to do with this? And besides isn't Kyokai able to kick rikishi out just like that anyway or do they even have some kind of protection against dismissals in form of contracts or so...why would Kyokai believe them instead of urine sample results? When it comes to passive smoking, nicotine and other levels in the blood are a lot smaller than when one smokes oneself. I doubt cannabis is any different and these tests must have been designed so that positive result from passive smoking is extremely unlikely. Threshold levels in those A and B-tests with more sophisticated tests are most likely high enough.

I fully understand why they plead innocence. They will lose everything if the admit using but they won't lose more if they are treated as guilty ones despite them saying they are innocent. Of course they stick with their stance. Some athletes keep denying even when they have very strange substances in their urine that can't get there in any circumstances except using them. Tampered samples-defense is also much used or like Maradona said "Those tests can give any kind of results".

[Jonosuke]

What the Kyokai executives want to avoid is having to expel two of their sekitori so soon prior to the start of Basho. They also do not want to invite more confusion and mayhem by forcing its chairman to resign. So there are a lot at the stake here.

Japanese public often talk about the common sense in Ozumo is uncommon sense for the rest of society. Deep down all Kyokai men think they are all this in together while they see vultures circling the wagon. They feel they need to fortify their gates as their old world mentality resurfacing. It is after all a closed community. Some could care less about world standards or approved lab results when one of them is in deep jeopardy and as long as he is pleading innocent, they believe him to their grave.

And to their grave, they may go. Public pressures are mounting buoyed by media frenzy as well as politicians and government bureaucrats are joining in for good measure.

The Prevention Committee members are caught between the expectations of public (media) and distrust expressed by the highest ranked Kyokai officials. Some are already speculating the outside members may leave creating more mayhem. Those close to the committee members are saying they are dismayed by lack of support shown by the Kyokai oyakata. They feel the Kyokai is now making a mockery out of drug testing by basically saying they will not release any name of rikishi proved positive and they will keep repeating the tests until they are proven otherwise or the rikshi will admit the use of either a steroid or illegal substance. Currently the members are in no win situation whatsoever and they fear their position may soon become untenable.

[Umigame]

Speaking of media frenzy... On my way home tonight I passed a news kiosk on the train platform in Shinjuku.

One newspaper headline jumped out at me:

"Kitanoumi Shinitai"

[Jonosuke]

Press Conference on September 6 on the second test finding:

Prevention Committee Anti-Doping Chief Prof Yohen Onishi of Keio University:

Q: When did you learn the results of this testing?

Onishi: On the night of September 5. I might add there is a rare occasion when the result of A sample and B sample may differ. Even when Sample A shows positive, if the B sample shows negative, the final determination will be negative. We had such cases in the past.

Q: Did you forward the result to the rikishi?

A: Roho came with his oyakata and lawyer to the Kyokai and asekd for re-testing. We requested to meet with Hakurozan and Chairman Kitanoumi but so far we received no reply. (They can only proceed with the B sample testing after receiving the permission from them).

Q: Chairman Kitanoumi is asking to have the test performed again at another lab?

A: We have aske to have the full formal testing performed at the only laboratory in Japan so approved by WADA (World Anti-Doping Agency). What do you think of doing another test even at another lab? Really what do you think?

Q: At his press conference, Roho denied ever using it.

A: Well, everyone says so. The reaction is really consistent. But then we also have a case like Marion Jones (Track and Field Gold medalist) who pleaded so at a court. I wonder if there is anyone who honestly says so.

Q: The lawyer of Roho is accusing that his name was identified prior to the testing (implying he was targeted)?

A: All screening organizations process them using numbers so they could not identify them. He is saying we used the cup with their name at the time of urine collection, but we've explained the procedures thoroughly already. We can only take it as a baseless argument.

[ilovesumo]

I love sumo,and I just want to go and do sumo with vigor.",

got nothing to do with it, I swear! (Holiday feeling...)

[Pak]

I don't see the point in having the tests done at another lab. Would there be any of the original samples left to test?

Ah well, it is only a little longer to wait for B test results. Perhaps it is this step that takes into consideration the various medications an athlete might have taken. From what I've found on WADA testing, I understand a Doping Control Form is submitted with the samples listing medications given in the recent past. I will still hope the test comes out negative. The tournament starts soon, and I want to enjoy it without this kind of stuff hanging over it.

If B is positive, and the brothers adhere to their claim they didn't inhale it willingly, the lawyer will probably then offer some ridiculous explanation for the drug's presence, such as someone held a lit reefer under their noses while they were sleeping. He'd have to come up with something, or else they would have to admit to lying about never being around it.

Regards,

Pak

[Kintamayama]

People close to the brothers' investigation are now saying it's going to be virtually impossible to accuse them of any crime at this time. As someone said very early on in this thread, possession is a crime in Japan, while usage is not. Since the search in their homes produced nothing, the police will be hard-pressed to charge them for possession, as they are adamant in their denial of using and possessing. Wakanohou is making a point of repeatedly saying he smoked alone, so there is no way at this point to go through that avenue of "smoking in the back room with the guys" as well. The irony is that if they were caught using enhancing drugs, it WOULD be a crime, but as long as they are testing positive for marijuana, they are untouchable by law. This of course doesn't make the moral issue go away, but strictly from a legal point of view, and I'm no expert, they are safe for the moment.

Kitanoumi was asked if the brothers wuld be participating in September. "I don't mind..", was the answer that is driving the press and Oyakatas crazy at the moment.

Edited September 6, 2008 by Kintamayama

[Jonosuke]

Still the toughest question facing the Kyokai is what they do against the brothers. They have not been arrested as they have not breached any law. They are maintaining their innocence. Even if the final test proves conclusively that the samples contain traces of marijuana, can the Kyokai suspend or expel them permanently on suspicion?

Meanwhile NHK TV is receiving so many messages asking them to stop the coverage of Aki Basho. A typical message saying how as a public broadcaster they could allow kids from seeing marijuana users competing.

Aside from his role as the chairman, Kitanoumi is not even fulfilling his responsibility as a shisho as he has been holed up inside his heya not coming outside complaining there are hordes of reporters waiting outside making impossible to go outside.

At least Otake oyakata came out with Roho and brought in a lawyer to represent him and had a press conference. The oyakata went to the Kyokai accompanying Roho and the lawyer asking for a retest. He even stood up in front of all other oyakata at their meeting to read out Roho's letter describing his point of view. Kitanoumi has done none of this so Hakurozan so far has no chance of the B sample test at this point. But then again Kitanoumi is saying they should get tested at another lab (if there is one willing to take it after the Kyokai rejects another well established lab's testing).

This has become as much of Kitanoumi problem as the brothers'.

Edited September 6, 2008 by Jonosuke

[ilovesumo]

At least Otake oyakata came out with Roho and brought in a lawyer to represent him and had a press conference.

Sure. He knows he is safe. He knows Magaki wasn't "retired".