What will the Kyokai do now - Roho and Hakurozan Issue?

[sekihiryu]

interesting "quasi - positive", one has to ask why wasn't this Lab used immediately following the first test and BEFORE some blabbermouth in the Kyokai went to the press.

Excellent work NSK :-D

[Pak]

Eh, they did not take the additional samples immediately? Stalling, giving time for any drugs to work their way out of the system ... some people will think so, regardless of the real reasons there was a delay.

I have to agree with Asashosakari in that it was inevitable that the news would come out, regardless if the kyokai announced it or not. A lose-lose situation for the kyokai, but they could have handled their announcement better, making it clear in the first place that some of the medications being taken by Roho and Hakurozan could have resulted in a false positive, and that determined follow-up actions were being taken to clarify the results...but apparently not so determined, argh.

I am thinking about this way too much :P

Regards,

Pak

[Asashosakari]

Eh, they did not take the additional samples immediately?

As I understand it, no additional samples were taken; they're simply talking about sending in (what's left of) the original samples.

Edited September 3, 2008 by Asashosakari

[Otokonoyama]

The Kyokai initially announced they would forward the samples by Sept 3 but they then said there would be a further delay in doing so. They have not explained the delay in shipping but they are now reporting that the earliest they could receive the completed analysis will be September 6 but likely later.

An unexplained three-day delay?! Chain of custody of the samples is totally in doubt now. Without that, results are really no better than the latest fiction release at the local bookshop. No accredited lab would even touch samples that did not meet very strict chain of custody requirements, let alone mess with their reputation by testing them.

[Asashosakari]

The Kyokai initially announced they would forward the samples by Sept 3 but they then said there would be a further delay in doing so. They have not explained the delay in shipping but they are now reporting that the earliest they could receive the completed analysis will be September 6 but likely later.

An unexplained three-day delay?!

Err, no. The original plan called for the samples to be sent in on the 3rd and results to be received by the 5th; now they're talking about it being one day later if things go according to plan. The "but likely later" part of Jonosuke's comment refers to the Kyokai stepping away from their earlier claim that the results will be in within 48 hours, as Onishi et al. are now saying that these tests typically can take up to 10 days unless there's special urgency to the procedure.

At least that's the officially proposed timeline. You're still free to disbelieve any or all of it, but there's certainly no "unexplained three-day delay".

[Otokonoyama]

Thanks for the clarification. But, I'm still a bit skeptical that the samples can be demonstrated to be in a clear chain of custody. All the conflicting information coming from the NSK does not inspire confidence. Bumbling would actually play into their hands in this situation.

[Jonosuke]

My understanding about the delay is that the Kyokai has not regiestered themselves with the anti-doping organization and they need to apply to the group. Only registered organizations can use the lab for official purpose as apparently certain standards must be set and met prior to them being admitted.

Since they have Prof Onishi who has some authority in this field due to his association with Keio University, there was no problem joining the membership but apparently a time delay was inevitable. But Otoko san is right in saying if the Kyokai keeps doing this type of mickey mouse operation, how can a legit Lab take them seriously to do the testing for them as their reputation is on line?

[Otokonoyama]

Takahohana was asked if the Kyokai should cancel the Aki Basho and he said, "If the results really turn out to be the worst possible case, then we will be in the most serious situation. We must look at all possible responses". And the reporters took it as he was calling for the cancellation and the editor wrote the screaming headline. But then again it does include everything so it's not 100% incorrect but he never specifically said so and that was my point. The Kyokai is made up of many differing voices so I am sure there are some who feel that way...

"I personally want to believe them (Roho, Hakurozan) as much as possible. While we are receiving the continued support from our fans, we should be OK but if the faith they have on us diminishes further, then the legitimacy of Sumo Association as a group or entity will undoubtedly be raised. We disparately need to rid of deteriorated parts, " Takanohana added...

Thank you for the clarification Jonosuke. The additional context and analysis is most appreciated. :-)

[Otokonoyama]

My understanding about the delay is that the Kyokai has not regiestered themselves with the anti-doping organization and they need to apply to the group. Only registered organizations can use the lab for official purpose as apparently certain standards must be set and met prior to them being admitted.

Since they have Prof Onishi who has some authority in this field due to his association with Keio University, there was no problem joining the membership but apparently a time delay was inevitable. But Otoko san is right in saying if the Kyokai keeps doing this type of mickey mouse operation, how can a legit Lab take them seriously to do the testing for them as their reputation is on line?

Again, thank you Joe. Very enlightening. The problem with this situation is, while we are waiting for the ad hoc registration, we have no assurance that the samples are being stored properly, that there is no opportunity to switch or tamper with the samples, etc, etc. [/broken record]

[Sasanishiki]

Without knowing who is holding the samples, this is speculation. We don't know if the lab is actually holding the samples but will not process them until the paperwork is done. Alternatively Onishi or Kitanoumi or anyone could be housing them at home. Worrying indeed but I hope the NSK is clued up enough, or being properly advised by Onishi, to act properly.

[hidenohana]

Has anyone read the Guardian link:

Mitsuru Yaku, a fellow sumo association member, told a TV interviewer that it was "natural" that Kitanoumi would be sacked, adding that he believed more damaging revelations were on the way. "I don't think for a moment that all of the pus has come out," he said.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/sep/0...;feed=worldnews

:-)

[Asashosakari]

Has anyone read the Guardian link:

Mitsuru Yaku, a fellow sumo association member, told a TV interviewer that it was "natural" that Kitanoumi would be sacked, adding that he believed more damaging revelations were on the way. "I don't think for a moment that all of the pus has come out," he said.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/sep/0...;feed=worldnews

:-)

Thankfully, my reaction can be summed up in two quotes:

... the three-ring circus that has ensued with yet another pointless advisory committee whose non-Kyokai members have promptly decided to opine on all kinds of subjects totally unrelated to the topic of hazing

Yaku Mitsuru is an attention seeking clown, who has used his appointment to this position solely for the purpose of self-promotion.

The article itself wasn't as bad as I thought it would be (given that, well, it's from the Grauniad). Of course it does perpetuate the "OMGTokikilledsumbodyandwuzntpunishedproperly!!!11!1!" myth to insinuate that nobody has it as hard as those poor widdle foreign rikishi, but I guess that's par for the course these days... And calling Yaku a "sumo association member" is, uh, creative.

[Kintamayama]

Yokozuna Asashouryuu says he believes the brothers are innocent. "I think they haven't been doing it. I believe them!", he said. "The press are over the top!", he added, as someone who has had some experience with them. He called ex-Taihou yesterday evening , telling him he believed the boys.

The Rohou-Hakurozan brothers' neighbors are talking to the press, saying they have seen Wakanohou frequently come over to visit. They would leave in the evening ("wearing hunting hats"..) and were seen many times returning in the morning. The brothers live with their sister in their apartment.

Hakurozan outside:

The police have closed down the street where Magaki and Kitanoumi beyas are situated, due to the growing number of reporters camping out there these last few days, Most of them leave after 8, but at least 50 remain standing around waiting for something to happen.

Edited September 4, 2008 by Kintamayama

[Orion]

The article itself wasn't as bad as I thought it would be (given that, well, it's from the Grauniad). Of course it does perpetuate the "OMGTokikilledsumbodyandwuzntpunishedproperly!!!11!1!" myth to insinuate that nobody has it as hard as those poor widdle foreign rikishi, but I guess that's par for the course these days... And calling Yaku a "sumo association member" is, uh, creative.

And how about "urine tests conducted at several sumo stables yesterday revealed marijuana use by the Russian siblings ... "? The only tests I've heard of were all taken at the Kokugikan while all the sekitori were there for the Rikishikai.

And the writer compares the two-tournament suspension of Asashoryu, the foreigner, for calling in sick to avoid "a goodwill sumo" (has this man never heard of a provincial tour? -- with a one-tournament suspension of the Japanese Toki, "who struck and killed a Japanese pedestrian while driving in Osaka..." -- when Toki's offense against the Kyokai rules was in simply driving himself; the traffic offense was nothing to do with the Kyokai; as anyone knows who takes the trouble to read this forum and elsewhere, it was a police matter -- and it was shown that the pedestrian was jaywalking.

Somebody heas already commented on his calling Yaku "a fellow sumo association member" right after a mention of the Chairman, Kitanoumi.

Note for cat-lovers: in the quote of Yaku's comment that it would be natural for Kitanoumi to be sacked, he adds: "I don't think for a moment that all the puss has come out." Ah, yes, the Grauniad hasn't changed a bit, it appears.

Orion

[Kintamayama]

Now they are saying the test results may be delayed even till the 10th. The inspections only got under way this afternoon.

[ilovesumo]

Now they are saying the test results may be delayed even till the 10th. The inspections only got under way this afternoon.

"Oh come on..."

That might be the reaction of many people...

Well, maybe time is needed to be able to say "The basho can't be stopped anymore".

Edited September 4, 2008 by ilovesumo

[Jonosuke]

Apparently the Kyokai is starting some damage control. They are trying to check painkillers and other medications that Roho and Hakurozan used and if any of them may have contributed to their positive test. Some officials are now even switching their phrasing of their incorrect reading from "possible" to "probable" for other painkillers. Even Prof Onishi admitted to reporters that they need to have a gas chromatograph to prove one way or another for certain as a simple kit has no such sophistication, introducing more uncertainty and anxiety to all active rikishi.

Almost all rikishi use one type of painkiller or another prescribed by a hospital clinic for their injury and they hardly know what they are taking. Some are even suggesting that what if one of their medications shows up positive during a Kyokai screening which uses such a "simple" urine kit.

The kit they used for the latest screening is now identified: Monitect-3

Edited September 4, 2008 by Jonosuke

[Asashosakari]

Meanwhile, the Kyokai received about 100 (phone, I guess) complaints and other comments on the 3rd, calling for the involved shishos to take responsibility, including Kitanoumi's retirement from the rijicho post, etc. Ticket sales appear to be unaffected so far, however, with Day 14 and senshuraku sold out already, according to an (unnamed) person in charge of ticket operations.

Edited September 4, 2008 by Asashosakari

[Jakusotsu]

..., with Day 14 and senshuraku sold out already, ...

Pardon my ignorance, but haven't they been weeks ago?

[Asashosakari]

..., with Day 14 and senshuraku sold out already, ...

Pardon my ignorance, but haven't they been weeks ago?

That's what the newspaper chose to highlight. The ticket guy was (in my impression) speaking about overall ticket sales being similar to regular years, but no further details were given.

At any rate, according to this the situation as of 10am today, right after the article was posted (9:48), was: senshuraku sold out altogether, Day 14 sold out in box seats, with many Arena B&C and few Arena A seats still available. For comparison to 10 days ago (via Google cache): Pic

Edit: And looking at the article again, I think the reference to the 14th day was actually about shonichi on Sep 14, not Day 14. Sigh...can we please go back to not having any tournaments starting on the 14th? Trying again to get (１４日初日の秋場所入場券は、すでに千秋楽が完売。) correct: Senshuraku completely sold out, shonichi down to general admission tickets. (Of course, that's also somewhat contradicted by the graphic above...)

Edited September 4, 2008 by Asashosakari

[Jonosuke]

The Kyokai's Prevention Committee's Anti-Doping head, Prof Yohei Onishi, says they intend to screen all 720 rikishi for steroids and other prohibited substances as soon as they could set up a process, even possibly within this year.

The Kyokai's Anti-Doping group instituted the testing after the Rikishi Kai meeting on September 2 but from now on, the inspectors will visit each heya unannounced and will be performing urine testing of all the heya's rikishi.

Currently there are 41 Makuuchi, 28 Juryo, 120 Makushita, 200 Sandanme, 256 Jonidan and 75 Jonokuchi rikishi in the Kyokai and they will incur substantial costs and time but after the Wakanoho arrest and discovery of possible use of marijuana by Hakurozan and Roho, they feel they have no other choice now.

"Now that we are facing another crisis like this, unless we have some strong measure to restrain our rikishi, there is no point in doing anything else," a rank and file oyakata said.

Meanwhile the Kyokai chairman, Kitanoumi oyakata, sent out a stern note to the Anti-Doping group complaining by publicly releasing the information immediately, "the rights of individual rikishi were severely violated" asking to keep the names of rikishi hidden from the media in the future.

The chairman himself is now under enormous pressures to step down from his position which he steadfastly refused to do through all the controversies the Kyokai faced especially in the last couple of years. "I will not be forced to act and I feel no such urgency myself. Even when the results come out in the next several days, I won't be making such a decision," Kitanoumi said.

However even some oyakata within the Kyokai are privately saying that the Kyokai needs the drastic changes at the top. The general public are more and more calling for the Kyokai to change their way of thinking which mostly up to now is "solving their own problems internally behind the closed doors." Some commentators are even saying all the Kyokai is doing is nothing more than having criminals judging criminals.

The Kyokai may not escape the public wrath this time around regardless of the current outcome and they may be finally forced to alter their "no outsider welcome"　closed community mentality.

Edited September 4, 2008 by Jonosuke

[ilovesumo]

The Kyokai may not escape the public wrath this time around regardless of the current outcome and they may be finally forced to alter their "no outside welcome"　closed community mentality.

no escape...

if the new results say "innocent"

nobody will believe that, with Wakanoho already in prison...without the Waka-incident, they might have been able to re-test them clean,

but now- no way.

Heads will roll.

[Doitsuyama]

The Kyokai's Prevention Committee's Anti-Doping head, Prof Yohei Onishi, says they intend to screen all 720 rikishi for steroids and other prohibited substances as soon as they could set up a process, even possibly within this year.

The steroid tests will be an especially juicy novelty.

[HenryK]

Tested positive for Marijuana? sigh, oh dear. I wonder what conniptions the media and general public would have if every Sekitori was tested today (and thoroughly) for performance enhancing substances and the results were made public

It's like getting a ticket for not wearing a seatbelt while the at the same time a guy doing double the speed limits zooms by and the policeman looks the other way.

p.s If the brothers want to prove their innocence, they could have hair samples analyzed for traces of (or lack of THC) it's a pretty reliable test, because your hair grows and you have THC in your system, residue of that becomes trapped in the hair follicles as they grow.

Thank you for a delightfully sane comment. The Kyokai has truly bigger issues to deal with than a couple of rikishi with traces of weed in their urine.

[HenryK]

The Kyokai's Prevention Committee's Anti-Doping head, Prof Yohei Onishi, says they intend to screen all 720 rikishi for steroids and other prohibited substances as soon as they could set up a process, even possibly within this year.

The steroid tests will be an especially juicy novelty.

You bet.