Toyasuko's YouTube channel dead

[Sasanishiki]

I wonder why all those gaikoku Jungyo when they just keep a ..... about us who need to watch the videos. What are they trying to do?

Attract gaijin to watch Sumo? Kinda useless without the opportunity to watch it.

You are right, it doesn't make sense if we view the foreign jungyo as an activity to attract foreigners to the sport. however, that is not necessarily their purpose. We might look at the jungyo as a way to showcase sumo to others so that they are aware of it, entertained by it and become more knowledgeable about it. This helps to satisfy an audience that craves it, or perhaps just satisfies those who help to organise the foreign jungyo. There is not anything specific behind it to increase viewer numbers for ozumo. The Kyokai has a duty to do various public acts to promote sumo because of the type of organisation it is (in Japanese law) and because it receives government money. Part of these duties are jungyo, either throughout Japan or abroad. It gives an audience a chance to see ozumo, but because teh Kyokai is not particualrly concerned with the revenue possibilities in sumo, outside of selling tickets to the hon-basho and enough to cover costs of other tournaments, they are not necessarily trying to increase their spectator base (particularly overseas). As long as the money comes in and there are enough seats filled at the hon-basho then they seem happy. I have no inside knowledge but just speak from the experience of havingseen how the NSK has operated for the past decade or more. In part, the foreign jungyo does satisfy an overseas audience, but it could equally be said the foreign jungyo are conducted to show those within Japan that their national sport is reaching the world (thanks to the efforts of the NSK).

media library online must be the future- the internet is a giant source...why don't they set a xyYen per month and let us watch any bout we want to?

I see this as the logical future, but then the NSK has not seemed to be too concerned with the obvious marketing/revenue possibilities that there are with ozumo. This kind of revenue source might become more important as they tie-up with media companies, or if poor ticket sales at hon-basho threaten the viability of the whole structure of the Kyokai.

[sekihiryu]

tis a shame that the videos have gone, it's a case of supply and demand, the technology exists and volunteers are sacrificing their own time for no material gain (except one certain audacious lady) to cover a shortfall in supply by an incompentent bunch of luddites (the NSK). If anything Toyosuko was helping out the NHK and the NSK.

I understand its technically illegal, nevertheless the pull your head out of the sand to pull the pin on someone only to put your head back in the sand attitude is terribly disappointing and disillusioning.

My torrents that I made and was posting on a private torrenrt tracker got "noticed" by someone and my account and all uploaded torrents vanished. I took the hint and such is life, the sumo fans are the real losers in the end.

The technology exists, we should be using it, not fearful. This world is a frustrating place to be sometimes.

What we need is revolution, yes bring it on I say - the E-revolution. It's high time if you ask me.....

A revolution (from the Latin revolutio, "a turnaround") is a significant change that usually takes place in a long period of time. Aristotle described two types of political revolution:

Complete change from one constitution to another

Modification of an existing constitution.[1]

Revolutions have occurred throughout human history and vary widely in terms of methods, duration, and motivating ideology. Their results include major changes in culture, economy, and socio-political institutions.

[Jonosuke]

Since NHK is the only broadcaster covering Ozumo in whole, we think the Kyokai is dictating the terms to NHK as far as the video distribution is concerned. But other than licensing the coverage for broadcast, they don't go to NHK and tell them what to to do. Removing sumo video from YouTube as far as I know is only those originally broadcast by NHK which has the rights. If you go to the Kokugikan and take video and put on YouTube they should still be there.

NHK is only trying to protect themselves and they are not doing it to inconvenience sumo fans in abroad. NHK is more aggressive in their assertion in their rights against such a netsite as YouTube because NHK collects a subscription fee from the viewers in Japan. Aside from obvious copyright problems with the creators, NHK needs to show the viewers that only those viewers paying the fee are entitled to watch their programs. For instance if one day tournament is shown on Fuji TV, they really don't care and they won't be doing anything for the Kyokai as far as those video are concerned.

Now as for the Kyokai as Sasa san pointed out they don't hold a foreign jungyo to attract foreign sumo fans. They view these events as a part of them being cultural ambassadors. It's a sort of like the New York Philharmonics doing a concert in North Korea. The Kyokai executives don't ponder where they want to go for a foreign jungyo. They only go for two reasons - one is a locally based promoter comes up with the money and all the arrangements and another is a cultural demonstration marking a certain significant event, for instance some city asks the Japanese government for some cultural exchange commemorating their founding and the government may ask them as they do for Kabuki, Japanese musical or arts groups to do their bit for national pride. They don't go abroad to make tons of money just enough to cover their expenses though their expenses are considerable as they don't fly or stay cheap. They were initially reluctant to go to Mongolia as they were not certain that they could recover their expenses even though the Mongolian government was even pressuring Japan's Foreign Ministry for the visit. I believe they agreed only after a certain group associated with a yokozuna guaranteed to come up with any shortfall.

In a minor way this holds true for jungyos in Japan as well. They certainly will need to show a profit for jungyo as it is accounted in their annual budget that is tabled in the national legislature but places they go to are again based on the availability of local promoters who are willing to shoulder all the financial risks and /or certain event marking the place like a centenary of the founding or some such things.

As for having more robust network coverage on web, I won't hold the breath as they have no need to. Aside from radio and TV (on three NHK channels) they have a digest available on mobile phone and a membership only site. As Japan moves to over the air digital broadcast, with a mobile phone, laptop、PDA, or even a portable dictionary or game machine, one can watch live TV in Japan (actually if you have a laptop equipped to receive over the air broadcast, you can pretty well watch all local channels in major cities now. And as far as the Kyokai is concerned that is all they care about.

Fans not in Japan are too few to count and make sense for them. For instance what if they charge 1500 Yen per basho, how many people are going to sign up? Perhaps 1,000 outside Japan? In Japan you can already get it free through live TV (and not even requiring net connection as long as having 1 Seg machine) so why pay? Japan's Pacific League baseball games are available free on YAHOO Japan (for those living in Japan) so it is possible Ozumo could do the same but the Pacific League does it only because their games are not nationally televised often. Ozumo is available nationally everywhere. So in Japan one can watch Ozumo live even though one has no access to TV or while out and about by 1-Seg distribution and in the very near future over the air digitally so the Kyokai has no need to upgrade their video distribution on their site which is maintained by a NTT company. Right now It really does not make financial sense for Kyoka to offer free or fee based distribution in Japan or abroad. Perhaps if enough people send mail to the Kyokai telling them they would pay enough money to watch their basho, then they may change their mind.

[ilovesumo]

I thought rights of showing sports online are not connected to the TV-rights? (At least for Germany I know it is like that- so 2 possibilities to make money...the TV-stream, I watch online, stops whenever there is sports at the TV programm). So the Kyokai only sold the TV brodcasting rights to NHK? (If it is like that, they could provide videos online...they already do that, but just for japanese people...)

Some of the private channels in germany just don't react if their shows appear on youtube. "TV-total" for example is a comedy show (the most important one here)- they know it will be uploaded by fans the next day- and they see it as advertising for the show- nothing to protect then.

I understand it's not legal to load up videos caught from the TV- here the right is clear NHK's. What about us fans loading up a Sumo video we did with our handy cam? Wasn't a Rikishi's face, shikona and everything owned by the Kyokai as a "trademark"?

they don't hold a foreign jungyo to attract foreign sumo fans

I understand the explanation but they are already doing the Jungyous- why not using the effect of attracting new spectators?

There are so many foreign spectators during the weekdays at a honbasho...they must be a financial factor...

[Jonosuke]

It make sense very little financially. They are already showing it free in Japan and for those abroad they are showing it on TV Japan in North America, JSTV in Europe and NHK World Premium in the most other parts of the world as well as a few other networks and TV stations in other countries like Mongolia. That would leave very little else as evidenced by a sports satellite channel in Europe which is no longer showing Ozumo. Simply put there is not enough demand for them to provide more video coverage than what they are doing now.

I think there is nothing wrong to attract more fans abroad but for them it make more practical sense to attract more local fans to come to the basho. It's that they are not going out of way to bring in more tourists to Japan as that's not their mission and they are not getting paid to do that. I have a feeling that most foreign fans in the venue are either staying in Japan for a while or happen to be in Japan so they come to visit a basho. The temporal visitors are unlikely to be the long time fans.

But having said all that I think it makes a great deal of sense for them to have their video storage site so fans could view the past basho as it will be great to see again all those yokouzna Akeboeno/Takanohana or even Taiho/Kashiwado bouts on the past senshuraku. That makes all the sense for casual fans as well as fans like us on this forum and die hard fans in Japan.

[ilovesumo]

It make sense very little financially. They are already showing it free in Japan and for those abroad they are showing it on TV Japan in North America, JSTV in Europe and NHK World Premium in the most other parts of the world as well as a few other networks and TV stations in other countries like Mongolia. That would leave very little else as evidenced by a sports satellite channel in Europe which is no longer showing Ozumo. Simply put there is not enough demand for them to provide more video coverage than what they are doing now.

All my hopes lie on the London Jungyou. Maybe hopefully any brodcaster will start showing sumo again from that point- Paris 1996 was the start, right?

I think there is nothing wrong to attract more fans abroad but for them it make more practical sense to attract more local fans to come to the basho. It's that they are not going out of way to bring in more tourists to Japan as that's not their mission and they are not getting paid to do that. I have a feeling that most foreign fans in the venue are either staying in Japan for a while or happen to be in Japan so they come to visit a basho. The temporal visitors are unlikely to be the long time fans.

Not their mission...I thought it was until today. (Sign of approval...)

I understand now.

But having said all that I think it makes a great deal of sense for them to have their video storage site so fans could view the past basho as it will be great to see again all those yokouzna Akeboeno/Takanohana or even Taiho/Kashiwado bouts on the past senshuraku. That makes all the sense for casual fans as well as fans like us on this forum and die hard fans in Japan.

Yes...just like the channel of Toyasuko. Globally accessible...

[Harry]

TV Japan here is NOT free. I wish it was... I don't know how many subscribers they have but the sumo coverage is a very large selling point. It is one of the few programs offered with secondary English audio, though I shudder at the thought of people listing to those announcers all the time. I enjoy watching dramas and some others enjoy watching Japanese baseball but I think that ozumo is probably the largest selling point for it here. I bet TV Japan is part of the reason why the free video stream is so poor -- they'd probably throw a fit if they put it up at a good resolution and frame rate.

I love watching it later on youtube and info-sumo (could they be next?) but free programmes funded by sponsors alone only goes so far. I can buy ozeki sake here (and I actually like it, and its cheap too) but aside from that I can't support any sponsors. They sell DVDs of their dramas but not of ozumo that I can see.

You can't fault them for trying to make money. I don't think google is having much luck paying Japanese TV companies revenue from their ads. I know they've reached deals with many American broadcast companies but I think Sony and others are shying away from it which is too bad.

[Mark Buckton]

It make sense very little financially.

The temporal visitors are unlikely to be the long time fans.

##########

But having said all that I think it makes a great deal of sense for them to have their video storage site so fans could view the past basho as it will be great to see again all those yokouzna Akeboeno/Takanohana or even Taiho/Kashiwado bouts on the past senshuraku. That makes all the sense for casual fans as well as fans like us on this forum and die hard fans in Japan.

this first part is spot on - even with those that make a journey over sometimes. Distance is a hard thing to account for year in, year out.

There is also, the vary fair argument heard often in Japan from foreign and Japanese fans and non-fans alike - why can / should some get the same service for free, whilts those based in Japan and watching in the US on cable / SKY? have to pay? Think about that - whichever nation you are in, if you are legally obliged to pay for something (TV coverage in this case), how would you feel if others took that same service for nothing?*

Second part - again spot on, but so many DVDs are released in Japan, that it may be affected by such sales / contracts etc. Anyone in Tokyo's 23 at least, should head to a local library and they will likely see dozens of DVDs on sumo covering the sport dating back to the 1930s / 40s.

NHK too have DVDs that they keep/make of shows released on digital / WORLD that may not be seen by the wider audience - at present, one fellow behind one of these recent, excellent shows on the yokozuna, sent a DVD this way - and is now, I hope, considering a method in which to sell it.

* I know NHK don't actively pursue people who don't pay but they are getting into gear on that now but this Q is to prove a point.

[hidenohana]

You know, I saw this hoohah (sp?) on the SF / SML as I was sat in a hospital waiting room on Saturday morning Japan time.

After giving it all some thought it was evident to myself that the sane voices respecting the proper way to do things - especially regarding the property of others - shone through or, in the case of several prominent members you would expect to post were noticeable by their absence.

Of course there is no short, easy way to resolve this problem of LMDS photo usage or, indeed to start looking at the methodology of Nicholas at self justification through publicity gained in showing the sumo following world selected (not all) private emails exchanged on a subject so I won't really try. To do so would only add to the feeding frenzy enjoyed by those inclined to offer incomplete opinions on the business of others.

I will say that SFM under my leadership will only ever operate legally and above board. We will only ever respect the intellectual rights, property rights and related copyright laws of the Japanese and international communities.

We have operated thus with the Nihon Sumo Kyokai, with news sites, private homepages and individuals connected to sumo at every level - around the world - and this will never change.

If this method of operation makes me naive that would be a badge I wear with pride.

If, at this time, any SFers / SMLers believe this modus operandi to be strange and believe we should operate differently or condone others who behave illegally, I respect their opinions.

I do, however ask them to respect the fact that as Ed-in-Chief of Sumo Fan Magazine and as a contributing (sumo and other Japan related subjects) writer to five publications in Japan and elsewhere I will follow and protect the rules of the society in which I live and work.

I make no apologies for the strength and vigor with which I protect what is deemed legally and morally proper by that society.

Would any of you, were a thief pleading poverty as justification for his actions, sat on your doorstep?

Hmmm...

As a sumo fan from the UK could anyone suggest how I could watch these matches with half decent quality legally?

Feel free to PM me.

[Jonosuke]

TV Japan here is NOT free. I wish it was...

Sorry about if I gave you the impression that TV Japan is free. But basically what I meant was if you have the subscription to it, it is free. TV Japan along with JSTV and NHK World Premium are all expensive fee based TV but most Japanese subscribe it not just for Ozumo. Actually they get a lot of complaints from their viewers about having too much Ozumo. But the fact that we have it for two hours dayily during a basho speaks a volume about dedidated sumo fans in North America (members on this Forum and Sumo Mailing List) who wrote to them say they only subscribe the service because of Ozumo and that voice was heard as those who wrote (including yours truly) to TV Japan were more passionate than others who were disgruntled with so much sumo on TV Japan.

Actually even in Japan ShowTime Ozumo Time is a subscribed service but it isn't only sumo. If you subscribe it and pay 300 yen per month, you can watch Ozumo (in Japan only). Even NHK costs you a subscription but all are not just for Ozumo but for so many other programs.

As far as I know the only legal way to watch Ozumo is through the Kyokai site but I know you can find odd torrents of some basho days here and there.

Edited June 9, 2008 by Jonosuke

[JAB]

So no "legal" ways to view next months Basho?

I am not one to give a rats butt about laws, so anyone have any sites where I can watch the Basho for free? Feel free to email me.

I looked into TVJapan here in Seattle, and it was $25 extra a month!!! WAY TOOOOO pricey IMO. That is why I was stoked when I found his Youtube channel thing.

Thanks

Jake (Sign of approval...)

[Harry]

So no "legal" ways to view next months Basho?

I am not one to give a rats butt about laws, so anyone have any sites where I can watch the Basho for free? Feel free to email me.

I looked into TVJapan here in Seattle, and it was $25 extra a month!!! WAY TOOOOO pricey IMO. That is why I was stoked when I found his Youtube channel thing.

Thanks

Jake (Sign of approval...)

It's a lot cheaper than flying to Nagoya, staying in accomodations for two weeks and buying daily tickets to the basho! Not anywhere as good but for now the only legal free option is the "Nihon Sumo Kyokai (Live Stream)" link you see above http://sumo.goo.ne.jp/sumolive with its low frame and bit rate.

http://www.Info-sumo.net may still have videos though you have to sign up (that might just save them) and it helps to know a little French (and you thought that high school French class would never come in handy; au contaire, mon ami!).

Edited June 9, 2008 by Harry

[Mark Buckton]

I do think you'll see PPV sumo in the not too distant future. NHK, Japan Inc is becoming much more media savvy and are out to make money just as much as the British / US / other nations TV wise.

Like so much in society in Tokyo - you see nothing of the planning but often just the results.

[JAB]

Thanks. I took Japanese in HS though. Embarrisingly enough I barely remember "Ohaio"

Jake

[Info-Sumo]

There is also, the vary fair argument heard often in Japan from foreign and Japanese fans and non-fans alike - why can / should some get the same service for free, whilts those based in Japan and watching in the US on cable / SKY? have to pay? Think about that - whichever nation you are in, if you are legally obliged to pay for something (TV coverage in this case), how would you feel if others took that same service for nothing?*

Is it really the same service when on one side you get a full direct coverage, full screen on you TV set, on on the other side you just get delayed low quality videos on your computer screen (youtube like or from any other website)?

Second part - again spot on, but so many DVDs are released in Japan, that it may be affected by such sales / contracts etc. Anyone in Tokyo's 23 at least, should head to a local library and they will likely see dozens of DVDs on sumo covering the sport dating back to the 1930s / 40s.

Did you really check? If they have one dozen they are great.. Sumo related DVDs are not so many! TV broadcast started in the early 50s so you hardly find 30's or 40's bouts DVDs...

Like so much in society in Tokyo - you see nothing of the planning but often just the results.

I think I can see both, planning and results at the moment and I am quite astonished. Coming from nothing to the best one could expect...

But as this special service will be available for abroad customers only (not living in Japan people) I think it is a bit expensive service for a(n) (only) sumo fan at the moment. For someone who wants to see all japanese tv it's great.

My only question on this topic: when only a few persons can watch sumo bouts (no more youtube, no more banzuke.com, no more info-sumo.net), they become the very few who know...What all the others will have to rely on? a special magazine...?

I had the same feeling as others in this thread before. I hope Iam wrong but am ready for another game (very different) eventually.

[Asashosakari]

There is also, the vary fair argument heard often in Japan from foreign and Japanese fans and non-fans alike - why can / should some get the same service for free, whilts those based in Japan and watching in the US on cable / SKY? have to pay? Think about that - whichever nation you are in, if you are legally obliged to pay for something (TV coverage in this case), how would you feel if others took that same service for nothing?*

Is it really the same service when on one side you get a full direct coverage, full screen on you TV set, on on the other side you just get delayed low quality videos on your computer screen (youtube like or from any other website)?

On the other hand, the delayed coverage part is exactly why I would still prefer to get my sumo fix via the internet even if I had the ability to sign up to TV Japan (without shelling out several hundred bucks for a dish system first, as it's not on cable here). Why should I want to tie myself down to the TV, even given the existence of DVR time-shifting and the like?

In fact, while every Japanese person may already be in position to receive sumo for free because they're already supposed to pay for NHK anyway, why should they want to be tied down to their TV for that? And being able to receive NHK with a TV card-equipped notebook and wifi doesn't count, in my opinion...that still forces you to watch exactly when NHK deigns to broadcast it. I find it hard to believe that every single sumo-interested Japanese person (or at least an overwhelming majority) is happy with that arrangement, so I'm definitely not buying the "there's no market" argument. And I highly doubt there'd be only 1000 overseas subscribers to a good internet offering, if sumo is as much of a selling point for TV Japan as it's always said it is.

Even the oyakata are complaining between the lines about how freakin' old sumo's viewership skews, both in the arena and on TV, but they're doing absolutely nothing to make sumo viewing easy and accessible for younger people. What's there so far? The web stream, then tiny digests for your mobile apparently, and that internet Showtime offering somebody pointed out a few months ago which is a complete joke IMO as it seems to offer even less than the TV Digest from what I saw when I proxy'ed into it. I'm supposed to pay for that? (Notwithstanding the fact that you can't pay for or even access it outside Japan anyway, hence the proxy hoops.)

I'm happily paying $120 a year to subscribe to MLB.TV, and I'd be more than willing to do the same with sumo if it was offered. I'm not even going to expect full BS2-equivalent coverage (down to upper Sandanme) for that; but on-demand availability of all of makuuchi and juryo in reasonable quality (i.e. a minimum of 300 kbit/s or so) wouldn't be too much to ask for $20 per basho, IMHO.

Edited June 10, 2008 by Asashosakari

[Mark Buckton]

Second part - again spot on, but so many DVDs are released in Japan, that it may be affected by such sales / contracts etc. Anyone in Tokyo's 23 at least, should head to a local library and they will likely see dozens of DVDs on sumo covering the sport dating back to the 1930s / 40s.

Did you really check? If they have one dozen they are great.. Sumo related DVDs are not so many! TV broadcast started in the early 50s so you hardly find 30's or 40's bouts DVDs...

yes - i have often borrowed DVDs with footage back before the 1950s. If you read the underlined part - I didn't mention basho coverage which did start, as you say, in the 1950s - I referred to coverage of the sport. (dohyo-iri/career highlights/yokozuna focus etc) The first images of sumo I have seen courtesy thethe NSK date back to the 1920s. Dohyo iri - but I forget who just now. Very grainy of course. Actually - the older vids on the NSK site are from before the 1950s aren't they? These have likely been put together on DVDs.

Numbers wise I cannot say exactly - but I have half a dozen scattered around the various work places I use, and know there are a lot more at my local library. From memory - at the very least around 15-20 there. Right next to the very early DVDs of Kabuki footage - Kanjincho in BW - excellent.

And these are only the older (image) DVDs. The newer ones on sale at the Kokugikan I have yet to see there. Those received direct from source nowhere yet of course - which is why I have asked them to consider selling (to the wider public)

Actually, most of those in the library are depicting the life and times of a lone/pair of yokozuna or a particular decade in sumo.

Edited June 10, 2008 by Exil
Fixed quote tags.

[Mark Buckton]

I think when it comes down to it, whilst it is nice to get something for nothing, when a charge is levied to that which was once free, people don't like it.

Quality aside, sumo is a business, the NSK is an agency that must make money even though they do have special protection in certain areas.

Asa touches on the issue, but how much would those without access to anything bar the stream be willing to pay? Would they be willing to pay?

[Harry]

Thanks. I took Japanese in HS though. Embarrisingly enough I barely remember "Ohaio"

Jake

Nice! Sadly my high school French is similarly forgotten for the most part but some of it came back from reading info-sumo so perhaps listening to or reading some Japanese will uncover some deep memories of the language. Good luck!

[JAB]

Harry,

Thanks. I would not hold my breath if I were you though!

Jake (In a state of confusion...)

[Mark Buckton]

I think when it comes down to it, whilst it is nice to get something for nothing, when a charge is levied to that which was once free, people don't like it.

Quality aside, sumo is a business, the NSK is an agency that must make money even though they do have special protection in certain areas.

Asa touches on the issue, but how much would those without access to anything bar the stream be willing to pay? Would they be willing to pay?

(Sign of approval...) appears this has truly hit the crux of it. (On the banzuke...)

[Jakusotsu]

(Sign of approval...) appears this has truly hit the crux of it. (On the banzuke...)

Go ahead and make a poll!

(I would do so myself, but I have no clue about sensible grading options)

[Fujisan]

Asa touches on the issue, but how much would those without access to anything bar the stream be willing to pay? Would they be willing to pay?

Yes!

As for the stream,its far too early in the morning for me by the time I get up you cant get on because its full up.

[Mark Buckton]

Asa touches on the issue, but how much would those without access to anything bar the stream be willing to pay? Would they be willing to pay?

Yes!

As for the stream,its far too early in the morning for me by the time I get up you cant get on because its full up.

what time (Jpn) as 8 hrs ahead of the UK, would you expect it to fill up now?

[Kintamayama]

If the quality is good and it's not highway robbery, I'd be willing to pay, no question about it. I'm paying to watch total crap on cable anyway. I'd venture a guess that most sumo fans wouldn't mind paying either. There is the question of timeline and format though-maybe those that live in the States wouldn't pay to watch a live-only channel. If they were to broadcast reruns the whole day or on demand, that would surely bring in more good folk.

OTOH, don't go giving them any ideas, OK? I'd leave things the way they are.

You know what, come to think of it, no one will pay. Tell them no one will pay!