Asa and Hakuho

[Pak]

I can't but help see Asa's shove with his hands being deliberate.

[Jonosuke]

Papers are reporting more details on the YDC meeting just held.

As reported Kitanoumi oyakata summoned Hakunho's shisho and requested to his shisho to reprimand him for retaliating against what Hakuho perceived to be Asashoryu's extra shove. However the chairman did not see it that way and he felt l Asashoryu was not at fault at all. He made it clear he did not intend to give a warning to his shisho at the meeting.

Hearing this all twelve members of YDC revolted as they felt he should have given the warning to both, not just to Hakuho. Kitanoumi was adamant and he did not budge his position. Rather harsh words were apparently exchanged between the YDC members and the chairman and this ensured for 40 minutes back and forth.

Finally even the Kyokai's excutive members sided with YDC and all alone in his corner, Kitanoumi ended up agreeing with the YDC suggestion to call Asashoryu's shisho to convey the warning.

All members of YDC members felt regardless of whether Asashoryu's push was intentional or not, the ugly staredown by both were unbecoming of yokozuna and conduct not befitting yokozuna.

So in this instance Kitanoumi lost his argument but he looked extremely agitated over the whole affair. I am not sure why Kitanoumi was so insistent on defending Asashoryu but again Asashoryu became a divisive factor even in a YDC meeting. I hope this is not a start pf the trend but Kitanoumi must realize even as the chairman, it's pretty tough to go against the whole YDC members all alone.

Edited May 27, 2008 by Jonosuke

[Murakami]

Yes, it was repulsive watching those two react live. Made me to side with the trolls for one day.

[Kirinoumi]

I'm a little puzzled by some of the strong reactions against Asashoryu. I admit that his habit of dame-oshi is not the best behavior for a Yokozuna, but I agree with Peterao (#11) that dame-oshi is not uncommon in sumo, and I don't think this would have been an issue at all if Hakuho had not responded. In recent times, I remember Ama, Kisenosato, and Hokutoriki giving unnecessary "and stay out" pushes, and have you all forgotten that Akebono used to do this all the time? I don't think he ever got in trouble for it, but I could be wrong.

[paolo]

The stare between the two after the bout was unbelievable, amazing, the most "alive" thing I have seen for a long time! I found it the most entertaining moment in years ! Provided they do not come to a riot, what else is expected if and when somebody (Kyokai, YDC) tends to create the saga of the "good" Yokozuna and the "naughty" Yokozuna ?

[Kintamayama]

Kitanoumi issued both Yokozunae a stern warning after the DON (Dame oshi niramiai) incident on senshuraku. They were both called to the KKan offices and were verbally abused warned. As we all know by now, at first he only admonished Hakuhou, but after a lot of pressure from the YDC and some of his peers etc. etc.

Asashouryuu at the KKan-coming or going?:

Edited May 27, 2008 by Kintamayama

[Washuyama]

Asa gives that little extra "and stay out" shove to everybody. I just think Hakuho wanted to convey that he's not "everybody." It wasn't very yokozuna-like, but if Hak hadn't pushed back, would we be havng this discussion?

Edited May 27, 2008 by Washuyama

[That-Satsu-Guy]

Asa gives that little extra "and stay out" shove to everybody. I just think Hakuho wanted to convey that he's not "everybody." It wasn't very yokozuna-like, but if Hak hadn't pushed back, would we be havng this discussion?

That's exactly why he shouldn't have pushed back. We shouldn't be having this discussion.

Edited May 27, 2008 by That-Satsu-Guy

[Peeter]

Asashouryuu at the KKan-coming or going?:

;-) Asa is not going nowhere, he's always coming and we are wondered his sumo, bad days or good, no matter! (Laughing...) (Help me...)

[Asashosakari]

Asa gives that little extra "and stay out" shove to everybody. I just think Hakuho wanted to convey that he's not "everybody." It wasn't very yokozuna-like, but if Hak hadn't pushed back, would we be havng this discussion?

That's exactly why he shouldn't have pushed back. We shouldn't be having this discussion.

I disagree. I'm not a big fan of Asashoryu's post-bout shoves (especially because it has seemingly become second nature for him of late) and even if the whole thing turned out a bit ugly, I'm quite happy that somebody (whom he might actually respect) finally asserted himself about it. If that had been done by a whole lot of people about a whole lot of his habits in the past, we and the press would all be talking about Asashoryu a whole lot less these days.

Also interesting to see that Kitanoumi was in Asashoryu's corner once again...I've said for a long time that Kitanoumi is probably Shoryu's biggest friend and defender in the Kyokai, but the usual suspects have been all too happy to ignore it and just lump him in and perpetuate the "everybody in the Kyokai hates Asashoryu" myth. Maybe Kitanoumi going against the entire YDC and most of the riji will finally put that one to rest, but I'm not holding my breath.

[ryafuji]

dame-oshi is not uncommon in sumo

Maybe not, but Yokozuna are supposed to have higher standards to uphold.

have you all forgotten that Akebono used to do this all the time?

No he didn't.

[Kintamayama]

Asashouryuu and Hakuhou deal with the oral reprimand:

Asashouryuu : "I have received a reprimand from the Rijicho and am reflecting deeply upon it. From now on, I will tbe very careful that this sort of thing will not happen again. My thoughts are that from here I would like to gambarize with the utmost effort!"

Hakuhou: "I was sternly warned. I am reflecting on the fact that I somewhat lost my cool. From now on I will try to remain calm outside of the dohyo as well".

Kitanoumi rijicho: "Sumo is for the fans. I warned them that they should be aware of the fact that they are Yokozuna and conveyed to them that they should always show an attitude of fortitude!"

Kokonoe Oyakata: "Their attitude on the dohyo was intolerable. A Yokozuna must set an example for all rikishi, so they should take this warning to heart. I would like them to behave as Yokozuna from now on!"

Old woman with missing front tooth, big wart on nose, long triangular black hat and broomstick: "Cackle, cackle, cackle!"

Hakuhou:"I hope no one notices the black penis growing out of my head.."

Tsukebito: "Umm boss, someone stuck this 'Kick me' sign on your back-I'll just peel it off, if I may.."

Asa: "Hakuhou is so childish sometimes.."

"OK, who fried my parrot??"

Edited May 27, 2008 by Kintamayama

[Gusoyama]

I think that its all just alpha dog bs. How many "I'm the real Yokozuna East" statements did Asa make coming back from his suspension? As asashosakari stated, Asa was just showing his dominance, and Hakuho was simply responding, showing that he was not "everyone else". No, he shouldn't have reacted, but Asa's extra push was definitely pre-meditated. Not in the flow of the bout at all.

[Jonosuke]

No, he shouldn't have reacted, but Asa's extra push was definitely pre-meditated. Not in the flow of the bout at all.

Most respondents to Yahoo Japan's Survey agree with you.

The question, regarding Asashoryu-Hakuho bout on the Senshuraku, Hakuho feeling it was a dame-oshi by Asashoryu and resulted in both staring hard at each other on the dohyo, do you feel who was more at fault?

Asashoryu - 63%

Hakuho - 8%

Both - 24%

Neither - 6%

Other - 2%

(as of May 28 6:30 JP time)

I wonder about those who voted for Other. I guess they felt it was Kimura Shonosuke's fault.

Edited May 27, 2008 by Jonosuke

[Kintamayama]

Asashoryu - 63%

Hakuho - 8%

Both - 24%

Neither - 6%

Other - 2%

(as of May 28 6:30 JP time)

You can still vote here if you like - the 5 choices are as written in Jonosuke's post and in the same order.

[Asojima]

I wonder about those who voted for Other. I guess they felt it was Kimura Shonosuke's fault.

Other could well be "I didn't see any problem with it."

[SalParadise]

Until seeing this thread I had no idea Hakuho retaliated. Watching it live I only saw the entirely pre-meditated push by Asashoryuu, and then Hakuho stand up and get slapped.

I think that a lot of people probably saw it the same way -- what Hakuho did was far more subtle when compared to what Asashoryuu did (double-pump followed by the push and the slap).

[Hananotaka]

The slap was not deliberate. When Asa came in with the extra shove his hands slid off Hakuho, who stepped in and pushed Asa back with his shoulder. Asa's hand coming in contact with Hakuho's face was incidental.

I find myself in agreement with Asashosakari. I think the incident as a whole was terrible. Staredowns are supposed to happen before the match. But still, I was getting tired of Asa's dame-oshi's. Obviously warnings and suggestions had absolutely no effect. Perhaps this incident (and the resulting hubbub) will instigate a change. You don't like the other guy being a Yokozuna, though.

There's a big difference, incidentally, between the final push off the dohyo, like Akebono (and other oshi-zumo rikishi) have done, and Asa's tendency to push/kick guys on the ground.

[Kirinoumi]

have you all forgotten that Akebono used to do this all the time?

No he didn't.

Yuh-huh. (I am not worthy...) I can't find a good example on YouTube, but Akebono used to routinely get people to the edge and then unnecessarily catapult them into the 8th row after they had already stepped out. I know this because I clearly remember being disturbed by it. I always rooted for Akebono against the Futagayama guys, but he could easily have caused injury to someone with this behavior, and that bothered me. I don't remember it ever being made an issue by the Kyokai though.

The one available video that comes close is this win over Wakanohana:

Obviously, there is not the pause between Wakanohana stepping out and Akebono giving the final push that there was in the Asa-Haku bout, but if we had a slow-mo version, you could see that (at 4 sec) Wakanohana's foot is out as Akebono starts his final unnecessary shove. Again, I'm not saying this a good example of what I'm talking about because this definitely qualifies as "in the flow of the bout." Anybody have a better example?

[Peeter]

Kitanoumi rijicho: "Sumo is for the fans. I warned them that they should be aware of the fact that they are Yokozuna and conveyed to them that they should always show an attitude of fortitude!"

Kokonoe Oyakata: "Their attitude on the dohyo was intolerable. A Yokozuna must set an example for all rikishi, so they should take this warning to heart. I would like them to behave as Yokozuna from now on!"

Old woman with missing front tooth, big wart on nose, long triangular black hat and broomstick: "Cackle, cackle, cackle!"

Sorry for detaching a piece of this wonderful reading, but in estonian language cackle sounds like kakle, meaning exchange blows! I think, the old woman wanted just it! (I am not worthy...)

And please stop conspiracy theories on 7-X last few days fightings - this is just like "back to back!" fighting, as ms Uchidate says... ;-)

Edited May 28, 2008 by Peeter

[Manekineko]

Miraculous senshuraku kk by senior ozeki moved to its own thread.

[Bilu]

But still, I was getting tired of Asa's dame-oshi's. Obviously warnings and suggestions had absolutely no effect. Perhaps this incident (and the resulting hubbub) will instigate a change. You don't like the other guy being a Yokozuna, though.

I agree.

For me (an Asa fan), the decisive issue here is that the opponent is a Yokozuna.

The dame-oshi may be tolerable for handling lower rankers (though still undesirable). However, a Yokozuna battle should be the utmost display of true sportsmanship and mutual respect.

Asashoryu cannot - should not - treat his fellow Yokozuna with anything but the utmost respect. If he does, he's degrading Sumo.

Edited May 28, 2008 by Bilu

[Jonosuke]

Obviously, there is not the pause between Wakanohana stepping out and Akebono giving the final push that there was in the Asa-Haku bout, but if we had a slow-mo version, you could see that (at 4 sec) Wakanohana's foot is out as Akebono starts his final unnecessary shove.

As Hananotaka alluded you really cannot compare Akebono's sumo to Asashoryu. Akebono was strictly an oshi-zumo rikishi. His MO was to go after his opponent with tsuppari and push (as well as occasional pulls). That's the nature of oshi-zumo. An oshi-zumo rikishi especially someone as tall as Akebono, he would not be watching his or his opponent's foot. He had to aggressively keep pushing until his opponent stopped moving or clearly out of the dohyo, not a foot or two out. If not, the opponent could push or turn his aside and he would fall down on his face.

Asashoryu' s dameoshi is notorious regardless of how he was going against his opponent. I have seen him doing a yorikiri with his hands on mawashi and when he let his hands go, he pushed his opponent.

Now I am not certain that this last one against Hakuho was intentional or not but often the reputation precedes him. Until now he was not severely cautioned but as this story exploded even the Ministry of Education and the government cabinet secretary expressed their regret, he could no longer ignore the latest criticism especially coming from Kitanoumi as an official reprimand.

YDC members believe Asashoryu is still in a probationary period and any unyokozuna-like conduct will be minutely examined so he will really need to watch his moves. If I were Asashoryu, I wouldn't be going back to Mongolia to rest after this basho but show up regularly doing training sessions.

[Kintamayama]

If I were Asashoryu, I wouldn't be going back to Mongolia to rest after this basho but show up regularly doing training sessions.

Well, sorry to say he hasn't listened to you yet again, and left today for Mongolia in a foul mood. On top of everything, his flight was delayed for three and a half hours because of bad weather. In order to avoid the press, he went through a special gate to undergo the departure formalities. On the bus to the plane, he was seen waving away a photographer, but he did not break his silence. He is slated to return on May 31st, as there is a one day tournament at the Kkan on June 1st.

Edited May 28, 2008 by Kintamayama

[HenryK]

YDC members believe Asashoryu is still in a probationary period and any unyokozuna-like conduct will be minutely examined so he will really need to watch his moves. If I were Asashoryu, I wouldn't be going back to Mongolia to rest after this basho but show up regularly doing training sessions.

Let the guy see his kids.

Edited May 29, 2008 by HenryK