Asa's sumo - worthy of a Y?

[Jejima]

He has, admittedly, as I mentioned earlier, suffered due to the health / wrist issues of Maru, but in 6 basho as an ozeki or yokozuna againt another active yokozuna finishing a basho, won just 2 of those tourneys. (as long as my counts are not mistaken and I don't think they are) That is not a very good return against other yokozuna - my point.

It is usually possible to find stats to suit one's purpose. I think there are some extenuating circumstances for the above numbers - you have already highlighted one of them.

Just a quick look at Hakuho would suggest (and I may have gotten the numbers wrong, as it was only a cursory check) that he has won 4 yushos out of a possible 10 using the same criteria as above. This is marginally better than the 2 out of 6 for Asashoryu. If Asashoryu wins the Yusho in July, then the numbers flip in his favour. So I guess we must also consider Hakuho to be a disappointing Yokozuna?

Okay, let me be selective with some stats....

Between September 2003 and January 2007, Asashoryu won 17 out of a possible 21 yusho. That is outstanding! Can any other Yokozuna claim such an impressive record?

Of course there are some reasons leading to such an amazing record.

Edit: Just had a slightly better look, and note that Hakuho won a yusho as an Ozeki when Asashoryu pulled out in the first week, so Hakuho's numbers are 3 out of 9 - so 33% - the same as Asa's 2 out of 6.

Edited May 25, 2008 by Jejima

[Mark Buckton]

comparing someone less than a year into his reign as a yokozuna and another man about 5 years in.

Were we to go off that concept, Asa would be ranked below Hakuho.

Asa - 3 yusho in his first six basho as a yokozuna BUT - with no yokozuna coming close to even finishing a basho IIRC. I think Maru totalled about 6 or 7 wins in that entire time before retiring.

Hakuho - the same number of yusho - 3 - BUT with Asa in place and actively competing against him during 4 of these 6 yusho. Of course Hak won 2 yusho when Asa had 'issues' but should Hak be punished for that?

So, the numbers don't lie - Hak has already beaten a yokozuna in one head to head basho in his first year, and scored higher in another basho if he wins today. (this one).

Asa faced no active yokozuna in his first year at rank.

He did win the same number of (3) basho - and as was already demonstrated - the ozeki didn't turn up much that year either, but when they did - Asa did not fare well against them. The only time Maru put together back to back wins in that whole year (Nagoya 03) - Asa opted to drop out having lost 5 of his own.

[Mark Buckton]

Between September 2003 and January 2007, Asashoryu won 17 out of a possible 21 yusho. That is outstanding! Can any other Yokozuna claim such an impressive record?

Of course there are some reasons leading to such an amazing record.

great record and of course you know to qualify it, but in those basho he faced no other yokozuna. Has any other yokozuna ever had such a run? I know not but I imagine not as most other yokozuna have had the competition to dilute such numbers.

[BuBa]

Ok, Mark, Asa is not worthy.

[Jejima]

comparing someone less than a year into his reign as a yokozuna and another man about 5 years in.

Okay, comparisons are out, so we will just have to pluck some numbers out of the air instead?

Were we to go off that concept, Asa would be ranked below Hakuho.

Are we or are we allowed to go on that concept? If not, then the above is meaningless, if yes, then once more we have selected stats to prove our purposes. (See my comments above).

Asa - 3 yusho in his first six basho as a yokozuna BUT - with no yokozuna coming close to even finishing a basho IIRC. I think Maru totalled about 6 or 7 wins in that entire time before retiring.

Should Asashoryu be punished for the fact that Maru wasn't at his peak?

Hakuho - the same number of yusho - 3 - BUT with Asa in place and actively competing against him during 4 of these 6 yusho. Of course Hak won 2 yusho when Asa had 'issues' but should Hak be punished for that?

I don't know.... Should he?

So, the numbers don't lie - Hak has already beaten a yokozuna in one head to head basho in his first year, and scored higher in another basho if he wins today. (this one).

The numbers may not lie, but they are not telling the whole truth. This is comparing apples with ducks.

Asa faced no active yokozuna in his first year at rank.

So therefore not very good? Unlucky? Lucky?

He did win the same number of (3) basho - and as was already demonstrated - the ozeki didn't turn up much that year either, but when they did - Asa did not fare well against them. The only time Maru put together back to back wins in that whole year (Nagoya 03) - Asa opted to drop out having lost 5 of his own.

So, the Ozeki and Yokozuna turned up when Hakuho was winning his yushos?

Anyway, I think you have missed my point. It is usually possible to be selective with stats. Just presenting them does not provide the whole picture.

Asashoryu (when he retires) will be up there ranked with the greatest of Yokozuna, using most stats - No matter how much you disagree. Simply there are more stats available to show that he is great compared to those selected ones that may (or may not) show he is less than great.

Edited May 25, 2008 by Jejima

[Mark Buckton]

Asashoryu (when he retires) will be up there ranked with the greatest of Yokozuna, using most stats - No matter how much you disagree. Simply there are more stats available to show that he is great compared to those that selected ones that may (or may not) show he is less than great.

I do agree - in terms of numbers - but have doubts in terms of sumo offered. He is numerically brilliant, but so too, in baseball terms are Yomiuri Giants here in Japan. Only by weighing up the opposition can the true worth be evaluated - so please, go ahead and show those stats. I am not saying you are wrong, but comparisons can never be wholly numerical.

(good to read my initial comments properly too - wouldn't have needed to ask this

Should Asashoryu be punished for the fact that Maru wasn't at his peak?

) (Being thrown tomatoes at...) Of course the injuries of Maru cannot be held against him but he did benefit from very poor performances of the ozeki.

[Jejima]

Between September 2003 and January 2007, Asashoryu won 17 out of a possible 21 yusho. That is outstanding! Can any other Yokozuna claim such an impressive record?

Of course there are some reasons leading to such an amazing record.

great record and of course you know to qualify it, but in those basho he faced no other yokozuna. Has any other yokozuna ever had such a run? I know not but I imagine not as most other yokozuna have had the competition to dilute such numbers.

Okay, firstly I put up that stat just to show you how easy it is find one that suits one's purpose.

But let's take that record and look for some meaning. Now, there is your reading into it.

But there can be others.

In terms of longevity, Chiyotaikai could be considered a great Ozeki. In terms of yusho won, Kaio could be considered the greatest ozeki (having won more than any other who have not then been promoted to Yokozuna.)

It is also the time when the Makunouchi division was seeing a steady rise in the number of foreigners and University graduates - something which would suggest the standard may be rising?

During this time, Asashoryu dominated. Some may consider that a) the other good rikishi were neutralising each other out. b) Asa was so good, that he made the 'good' rikishi look mediocre.

Some may well conclude that the reason why there were no other Yokozunas promoted at that time was because there was too much good competition, and because Asashoryu was so great (and 17 yushos out of 21 would suggest something like that) to keep the rest out.

I hope you will agree that that is another possible reading of the stats in addition to yours.

[Jejima]

Asashoryu (when he retires) will be up there ranked with the greatest of Yokozuna, using most stats - No matter how much you disagree. Simply there are more stats available to show that he is great compared to those that selected ones that may (or may not) show he is less than great.

I do agree - in terms of numbers - but have doubts in terms of sumo offered. He is numerically brilliant, but so too, in baseball terms are Yomiuri Giants here in Japan. Only by weighing up the opposition can the true worth be evaluated - so please, go ahead and show those stats. I am not saying you are wrong, but comparisons can never be wholly numerical.

Except when they suit your purpose? For example, only won 2 yushos out of 6, etc, etc...

(good to read my initial comments properly too - wouldn't have needed to ask this

Should Asashoryu be punished for the fact that Maru wasn't at his peak?

) (Sigh...) Of course the injuries of Maru cannot be held against him but he did benefit from very poor performances of the ozeki.

My apology for not putting in a ;-) to show that was tongue-in-cheek due to your following comment.

[Mark Buckton]

I hope you will agree that that is another possible reading of the stats in addition to yours.

absolutely, I agree fully, but you'll then agree with me that any comments / figures offered 'against' Asa are almost always jumped on here on SF?

For many Asa is simply off limits, cannot be touched. Anything said against him is always returned with 'but he has won X yuisho in X years / basho etc. That itself is unhealthy - an over-reliance on numbers - my own examples picked up show how that reliance to prove the opposite or a different view are condemned as they fall outside the 'popular' plane of thought.

Glad Buba supports me though! Thanks Buba! (Sigh...)

[Jejima]

I hope you will agree that that is another possible reading of the stats in addition to yours.

absolutely, I agree fully, but you'll then agree with me that any comments / figures offered 'against' Asa are almost always jumped on here on SF?

I have no opinion on that. I know that some people are big fans of him, and others are very much against him. (reminds me of Manchester United a little, except that Man U probably has more 'anti-fans' than 'fans')

I would guess (I could be wrong) that there are more 'fans' of Asa belonging to this forum than 'anti-fans'. Therefore that would suggest that more forumers are likely to be supportive of him - and protest against negative comments that are either subjective or are based on interpretation of selective statistics.

For many Asa is simply off limits, cannot be touched. Anything said against him is always returned with 'but he has won X yuisho in X years / basho etc. That itself is unhealthy - an over-reliance on numbers - my own examples picked up show how that reliance to prove the opposite or a different view are condemned as they fall outside the 'popular' plane of thought.

I would argue that Asa is clearly not off limits, as can be seen by many threads about him and his behaviour. However, much we want it to be so, it is highly unlikely that everyone will agree with one's point-of-view (especially if one starts off in the minority), no matter how much we wish it to be otherwise. Sometimes those that disagree with us may well be reasonable, educated people. They have just a different take on the facts.

I must apologise. I thought that when you introduced numbers to this thread it was in support of your previous arguments, not to show that selective stats can be used to put a slant on things that may hide the real truth. In which case my arguments above are just restating yours.

Glad Buba supports me though! Thanks Buba! ;-)

Personally, I don't find the above comment funny - even if it does come with a (Neener, neener...). If that were done to me, I would feel:-

a) That I was being put down.

b) That to come back with a comment would be to lower myself.

c) That to respond would give the imptression that I had 'no sense of humour'

Of course by pointing out the above, I realise I have just laid myself open to a similar 'smiley attack' (Sigh...) - or (worse still) having one of my comments taken out of context to be used in a cheap shot against me. ;-).

[Mark Buckton]

I have no opinion on that. I know that some people are big fans of him, and others are very much against him.

you learnt well in Hiroshima Jezz, nails and hammers plus the direction 'down' etc. (Sigh...) Can you tilt your head to one side and / or suck air in huge doses? ;-)

a) That I was being put down.

b) That to come back with a comment would be to lower myself.

c) That to respond would give the imptression that I had 'no sense of humour'

Nothing gets past you mate - why no option 'all of the above' or 'Britney Spears? I'm serious!

Edited May 25, 2008 by Mark Buckton

[Jejima]

I have no opinion on that. I know that some people are big fans of him, and others are very much against him.

you learnt well in Hiroshima Jezz, nails and hammers plus the direction 'down' etc. (Sigh...) Can you tilt your head to one side and / or suck air in huge doses? ;-)

Well I was expecting the smiley attack and the comment taken out of context, but not the direct personal attack. But 2 out of 3 is not a bad statistic.

a) That I was being put down.

b) That to come back with a comment would be to lower myself.

c) That to respond would give the imptression that I had 'no sense of humour'

Nothing gets past you mate - why no option 'all of the above' or 'Britney Spears? I'm serious!

This is being serious?

Edited May 25, 2008 by Jejima

[Jejima]

a) That I was being put down.

b) That to come back with a comment would be to lower myself.

c) That to respond would give the imptression that I had 'no sense of humour'

Nothing gets past you mate - why no option 'all of the above' or 'Britney Spears? I'm serious!

Okay, I am going to take you at your word, and believe that you are being serious.

Please re-read my previous message. You will note that I don't include the word 'either' before listing a) b) and c). The reason being that this was not intended as a multiple choice, but that I would feel 'all options'. Therefore the suggested of 'all of the above' is redundant, as it is already implied that 'all of the above' is intended.

My apologies if I did not write this clearly enough.

I don't know the purpose of including 'Britney Spears'.

I don't think I will ever have the opportunity to 'feel Britney Spears'.

Edited May 25, 2008 by Jejima

[Mark Buckton]

(Eh?) (Eh?) (Eh?) (Eh?) (Eh?) ;-) (Sigh...) ;-) (Neener, neener...)

[Jejima]

To get back on topic.....

I am only watching on the live stream so have the option of only one viewing in real time.

The 'extra 'victory' shove' from Asashoryu, and the look from Hakuho after their bout were interesting. Without seeing the replays, I would suggest that neither of these things were what we would expect from a 'Yokozuna'.

Also (and I am sure I am wrong), did Asashoryu look a little scared when Hakuho stood up and glared?

[Mark Buckton]

now tell me that today's sumo was worthy of a holder of the highest rank in a national sport!

not the fact that Asa won which he did - not in a style I like to see, but fairly.

Was the extra little shove of a man already down really necessary? Of course, if that was part of 'going with the flow', how about the subsequent 'behaviour'. Did he lash out at a Hakuho then back on his feet - several seconds after the bout was over?

Sumo begins the minute a rikishi mounts the dohyo and ends when he leaves it.

Asa today demonstrated exactly why so many have turned in the past year or so - myself included.

Pitiful.

Edited May 25, 2008 by Mark Buckton

[Kotoseiya Yuichi]

I agree with monsieur Buckton about something. What is this world coming to?

Utterly unnecessary move. Childish, insecure bully at work once again.

[Mark Buckton]

I feel giddy - time to sit down!

[Hashira]

I feel giddy - time to sit down!

If this topic were about Asa's lack of hinkaku/proper etiquette, etc, there would be wide agreement among forum members. But what you have been trying to say that his sumo, his results, are not worthy of his rank. So what happened after today's bout is irrelevant. Also, you started off talking about how his sumo of late is unworthy, but seem to have have transformed into claiming that his sumo has never been worthy? Most here seem to be in general agreement that either argument is fairly weak, but your personal attacks and arrogance ae surely what will make people lose respect for you much faster than any unpopular or out-and-out wrong opinions regarding Asa or anything else.

[HenryK]

Consider the fact that Asa has a very poor overall record when competing against other yokozuna that actually finished a basho.

;-) (Sigh...)

Asahoryu's record as a Yokozuna against other Yokozuna is 2-1 (and after tomorrow either 2-2 or 3-1)

well there you have it, marks argument that Asa is so horrible comes off of 3 fights. strong stance

Well it's 3-1 now. A 75 percent success rate. I wonder how many Yokozuna in history there are who can match that.... :-/

[HenryK]

maybe good to read the initial post again lads. In your own jump to defend Asa, you miss the point entirely so I will try and spell it out: yadayadayada

Asashoryu didn't win the bashos in which he didn't participate, and he didn't beat other Yokozuna in bashos where he fought no other Yokozuna.

This is what your "argument" seems to boil down to.

[HenryK]

Between September 2003 and January 2007, Asashoryu won 17 out of a possible 21 yusho. That is outstanding! Can any other Yokozuna claim such an impressive record?

Of course there are some reasons leading to such an amazing record.

great record and of course you know to qualify it, but in those basho he faced no other yokozuna.

[DELETE] Again, he didn't face another Yokozuna because noone could get promoted to Yokozuna due to Asashoryu's dominance.

Edited May 25, 2008 by HenryK

[Mark Buckton]

.

Henry - you should see a large black point to the left of this text. What I need you to do is pick a finger (preferably one of your own) and see if you can touch that point.

If you can - a full on contact now mind! No glancing blows! - send me a PM and I'll explain the finer, obviously harder to see point you are missing regarding Asa being in competition on 6 occasions with another yokozuna who finished the basho - but winning just 2 yusho in that time. Not head to heads - yusho. (means championship)

Ok, finger ready? Aim! Fire!

Edited May 25, 2008 by Mark Buckton

[Randomitsuki]

I know that I shouldn't go into this, but I believe Mark is really up to something: 2 yusho out of six opportunities isn't that great. I searched the Database, and to my great horror I discovered that the numbers are even worse. Mark deliberately started counting from the basho where Asashoryu was Ozeki. But why stop there? If you look at the time between Hatsu 2001 and Nagoya 2002 you find nine(!) more basho (out of ten) where at least one Yokozuna finished all the way, and Asashoryu did NOT win the Makuuchi yusho!

So instead of 2-out-of-6 the number should have rather been 2-out-of-15. That is shocking beyond belief!

[Mark Buckton]

up to something or 'on to something?'