A basho that showed lots of promise

[HenryK]

The great Yokozuna rivalry dominated also this basho, but I also really liked what we saw at lower sanyaku and higher maegeshira ranks. Ama, Kotoshogiku and Kisenosato confirmed why people talk about them as future Ozekis; Kokkai and Baruto had superb bashos (seems the latter has largely overcome his knee problems) and looked every bit like long-term sanyaku material, and even the old warhorse Kyokutenho showed that he is still a force to be reckoned with. Not to forget Asasekiryu, Tokitenku and Miyabiyama, who produced solid bashos right from the middle of the meatgrinder.

It seems to me that the gap between these fighters and the Ozekis has become smaller, hence we may see quite a bit of change in the upper ranks (except Y) in the next two years. The next basho will have the strongest Y-M2 line-up in a long time.

Views?

Edited March 26, 2008 by HenryK

[messi19]

Indeed the competition is extremely tough and strong now in the upper part of the banzuke even beyond sanyaku and that is also why it will be so hard for Kisenosato, Kotoshogiku, Ama or anyone else to make it to ozeki in the near future. At the very least an average of 11 wins over a period of three basho is needed and it means a rikishi has got to beat a lot of talented rikishi and peform admirably well to get it done. I doubt any of the current ozeki would still be able to pull off a successful ozeki run at this point - perhaps with the exception of Kotomitsuki.

Think about it - for any of the rikishi ranked among the joi jin last basho it is hard enough going 3-3 against the likes of Asashoryu, Hakuho, Kotomitsuki, Chiyotaikai, Kisenosato and Ama (arguably the Top 6 rikishi in the world right now - I guess many would disagree with that though) and even if whatever rikishi would manage to pull that off he could afford only one more loss against the likes of Kotoshogiku, Tokitenku, Asasekiryu, Kaio and Kotooshu (obviously Kotoshogiku himself has a bit easier of a task considering his heya-mates)...And that would be needed not once but three basho in a row! One thing is for sure: The next ozeki - whoever it may be - will really deserve that rank.

Edited March 26, 2008 by messi19

[Raishu]

I can agree on your statement. There isn't such a distance between Sanyaku (Yokozunas excluded) and the Joi-jin anymore.

But I think this is the normal progress in Sumo. Kaio, Chiyotaikai and Kotomitsuki are already in their thirties and injuries are troubling them as well. We can expect a change pretty soon with Kaio and Taikai most likely retiring this year and talents becoming better and stronger. I assume that the likes of Kisenosato, Kotoshogiku, Ama or Kakuryu will replace them sooner or later and thus the balance of power between upper Sanyaku and the Joi-jin will shift as well.

Edited March 27, 2008 by Raishu

[Kintamayama]

Kokkai and Baruto had superb bashos (seems the latter has largely overcome his knee problems) and looked every bit like long-term sanyaku material,

Views?

I'd like to see them both ranked a bit higher and playing with the big boys a bit more. Then I will join the amazement bandwagon loud and clear. No arguing they had a great basho, but I don't think anything deep and lasting has changed-Kokkai will have to prove himself in the real world next basho, where he usually fails, new-fangled style notwithstanding. Baruto just went MK the basho before last ranked a bit higher. Next time, he'll be ranked WAY higher.

Personally, I hope they both succeed, but realistically, I give Kokkai 6 wins max next basho and Bart, if healthy, maybe 8.

[Bealzbob]

It's an interesting topic. There are so many rikishi that have massive potential. The likes of Homasho, Tochiozan and to a lesser extent Toyohibiki were mooted as future sanyaku regulars not so long ago and the first 2 still are, but there's only so much space up there, and the previously mentioned rikishi (Asashoryu, Hakuho, Kotomitsuki, Kisenosato and Ama, Kotoshogiku, Tokitenku, Asasekiryu and Kotooshu, Kokkai) wont be going anywhere soon, not to mention Wakanoho who's only getting warmed up. I think down to M5-6 will be very very strong in the not-too-distant future. And that's even taking the changing of the guard into account with the likes of Kaio, Chiyotaikai and Miyabiyama leaving (can't bring myself to mention the possibility of Kyokutenho leaving :-P)

[Asashosakari]

I wouldn't be surprised to see the yokozuna-ozeki classification making a brief return before the next guy attains the ozeki rank.

[philafuji]

I must see a different Ama than most of the rest of you.

If he ever makes Ozeki I will be surprised.

[Bealzbob]

Yokozunae aren't counted (as sanyaku)

Well I learned something new. And is 'ae' the correct plural ? If so, I learned 2 things (Sign of approval...)

[Harry]

For people the Japanese language does have the -達 -tachi/dachi suffix which means plural, e.g. 私達 watashitachi (us), 人達 hitotachi (people), 友達 tomodachi (friends), 子供達 kodomotachi (children); but I don't believe 横綱たち yokozunatachi is in use (the IME doesn't think so and I've never seen it) so I think in this case 横綱 yokozuna is singular and plural, and the same goes for 大関 ozeki, 関脇 sekiwake, 小結 komusubi, 三役 sanyaku and 関取 sekitori, et al. And in fact 人 hito can mean people, 子供 kodomo can mean children so the 達 tachi suffix is not necessary though for we I think 私達 watashitachi, 俺達 oretachi, et al is common.

Note that this -達 -tachi is not the same one as in 立会い tachiai (stand and meet) or 立見 / 立席 tachimi/tachi-seki (stand and see [standing room only] tickets and oxymoronically standing seating area) both cases where 立 tachi means stand. It is also not the same as 太刀 tachi (big sword) as in the 太刀持ち tachimochi (sword bearer). Japanese contains a LOT of homonyms when heard by ear which is perhaps why I find it easier to read it as the kanji are different, sometimes like in this case...

Edited March 27, 2008 by Harry

[Raishu]

Yokozunae aren't counted (as sanyaku)

Well I learned something new.

Dito (Clapping wildly...) . Thanks for the correction! (Sign of approval...)

Edited March 27, 2008 by Raishu

[Asashosakari]

There isn't such a distance between Sanyaku (Yokozunas excluded)

Sanyaku means Ozeki, Sekiwake and Komusubi. Yokozunae aren't counted although they do take part in the ceremony with the same name on senshuraku.

In fairness, when people make casual reference to the sanyaku, it's far more likely these days that they're talking about either a) all four ranks, or b) just komusubi and sekiwake. Sure it technically just means O/S/K, but that meaning has pretty much gone by the wayside since the yokozuna became an actual rank.

[Bealzbob]

For my part, the reason I thought sanyaku meant all 4 (Y,O,S,K) was because originally yokozuna was just an extension of (or a really good ..) ozeki (grand champion as opposed to champion). So although sanyaku might (I don't know) literally translate to something implying a top 3 ranks, the meaning of the word could have morphed to accommodate all '4' ranks when, as Asashosakari says, yokozuna became a rank in and of itself.

So that's where my error was. And to be honest, even knowing that it just means O,S,K I'll probably STILL use sanyaku to refer to the top 4 :-P

[aderechelsea]

I'll probably STILL use sanyaku to refer to the top 4 (First prize...)

me too .... :-P

[HenryK]

I'll probably STILL use sanyaku to refer to the top 4 (First prize...)

me too .... :-P

Same here. TTo S and K I normally refer as "junior sanyakyu" or "lower sanyaku" ranks.

[Asashosakari]

I disagree. I'd say in normal conversation it's meaning 95% of the time is (b) but never (a).

Depends on the context. If you hear "Rikishi X is ranked in sanyaku", it's fairly certain that the speaker means either komusubi or sekiwake (at least these days). If they say something like "Wakanoho faced # sanyaku opponents last basho", it's normally a reference to all four ranks. Your everyday conversations may skew differently, but here on the forum both versions are definitely in common use.

[aderechelsea]

couldn't be explained better than that.

[Hananotaka]

For people the Japanese language does have the -達 -tachi/dachi suffix which means plural, e.g. 私達 watashitachi (us), 人達 hitotachi (people), 友達 tomodachi (friends), 子供達 kodomotachi (children); but I don't believe 横綱たち yokozunatachi is in use (the IME doesn't think so and I've never seen it) so I think in this case 横綱 yokozuna is singular and plural, and the same goes for 大関 ozeki, 関脇 sekiwake, 小結 komusubi, 三役 sanyaku and 関取 sekitori, et al. And in fact 人 hito can mean people, 子供 kodomo can mean children so the 達 tachi suffix is not necessary though for we I think 私達 watashitachi, 俺達 oretachi, et al is common.

"-tachi" is not really a plural. It's more of a grouping suffix. If I say 僕たち, I'm referencing a group of independent entities that includes me. One could in fact say, 横綱たち, but it wouldn't mean "Yokozunas" like a regular plural, but rather "a group including, but not exclusive to, one or more yokozuna". Today, in a context pointing just to Hakuho and Asa, it would mean, "the Yokozunas". One often sees it with names: モチ君たちはどこ行ったの？Moti-kun-tachi wa doko itta no? "Where did Moti and the others go?"

人達, then, doesn't simply mean "people", but implies a group of people. One can't say, 臭い人達が嫌い Kusai hito-tachi ga kirai! "I hate smelly people!" You would have to use just plain "hito" for that. Interestingly enough, 友達 is typically used for one person, though like any Japanese word it can refer to many.

To keep this post on topic, there seems to be an interesting effect in sumo. A few years ago, there wasn't much of a gap between Ozeki and sanyaku, largely because of a logjam at komusubi/sekiwake. And it meant that the top maegashira ranks were changing every basho. It was ridiculous. For a while, it was like the top half and bottom half of the maegashira ranks were just alternating places. Now it seems like the log jam has spread to the top maegashira ranks, as well. I hate to say it, but Kaio and Chiyo may need to retire soon, just for the good of sumo. They're not bad enough to get demoted, but they're not really upholding the Ozeki name.

And I worry for Sadogatake-beya. I hope the Koto-Ozekis' problems are just temporary due to the change in oyakata, and they can soon settle down and do their own sumo.

[Hananotaka]

If they say something like "Wakanoho faced # sanyaku opponents last basho", it's normally a reference to all four ranks. Your everyday conversations may skew differently, but here on the forum both versions are definitely in common use.

I good-naturedly submit that that is weird and off-putting. I care not if one counts Ozeki in sanyaku or no, but please don't put Yokozuna in there. (Please!?...) :-P (First prize...)

[higginbotham]

"-tachi" is not really a plural. It's more of a grouping suffix.

Hai.

To keep this post on topic, there seems to be an interesting effect in sumo. A few years ago, there wasn't much of a gap between Ozeki and sanyaku, largely because of a logjam at komusubi/sekiwake. And it meant that the top maegashira ranks were changing every basho. It was ridiculous. For a while, it was like the top half and bottom half of the maegashira ranks were just alternating places. Now it seems like the log jam has spread to the top maegashira ranks, as well. I hate to say it, but Kaio and Chiyo may need to retire soon, just for the good of sumo. They're not bad enough to get demoted, but they're not really upholding the Ozeki name.

It has happened because the ozeki as a whole are not capable of pulling off 10 or 11 win on average, thus it is fairly possible to survive up there with decent scores and not 2-13, 3-12 things (except Takekaze, but his case another thing). And

just below the Ozeki, at Sekiwake and Komusubi the results are no better than 10 wins, too, and this allows almost everyone in joi jin to hang in there more or less regularly. Either way, you will have a logjam and the current tends to be bigger and (thus) rather homogenous.

Edit: commas

Edited March 28, 2008 by higginbotham

[Doitsuyama]

If they say something like "Wakanoho faced # sanyaku opponents last basho", it's normally a reference to all four ranks. Your everyday conversations may skew differently, but here on the forum both versions are definitely in common use.

I good-naturedly submit that that is weird and off-putting. I care not if one counts Ozeki in sanyaku or no, but please don't put Yokozuna in there. (Please!?...) :-P (First prize...)

Only if you suggest a good term for the komusubi to yokozuna group.

[Asashosakari]

To keep this post on topic, there seems to be an interesting effect in sumo. A few years ago, there wasn't much of a gap between Ozeki and sanyaku, largely because of a logjam at komusubi/sekiwake. And it meant that the top maegashira ranks were changing every basho. It was ridiculous. For a while, it was like the top half and bottom half of the maegashira ranks were just alternating places.

Right, during the Kaio/Musoyama/Tochiazuma super-sekiwake days (until 2000 or so).

Now it seems like the log jam has spread to the top maegashira ranks, as well. I hate to say it, but Kaio and Chiyo may need to retire soon, just for the good of sumo. They're not bad enough to get demoted, but they're not really upholding the Ozeki name.

Yup, as I wrote on the SML the other day:

In any case, the current situation is a historical anomaly: we're watching two of the greatest non-yokozuna of the last 100 years (at least one of whom would have become a yokozuna if he'd been active 25 years earlier) winding down their careers at the same time. The number of injuries that Kaio and Taikai have had over the past few years would have killed any regular ozeki career long ago, but because they're falling down from such a high level their decline phase has lasted a lot longer than normal. ...

At the same time, there's been a huge influx of new, young talent into the upper ranks during the last two or three years. (Remember just a few years ago when non-descript guys like Tosanoumi or Tamanoshima were still making regular sanyaku appearances?) Most of that new talent hasn't sufficiently matured yet, so for now we have a situation where everyone from ozeki to M3 is sort of equal. It's not just the ozekis who don't stand out any longer; none of the new guys currently stand out from one another, either.

That circa '04/05 period wasn't quite as bad as the late 1990s (in large part because heya factors don't play much of a role anymore), and Asashoryu's dominance probably overshadowed the larger patterns a bit, but the difference between yokozuna/ozeki and the lower sanyaku+meatgrinder was pretty pronounced back then.

And I worry for Sadogatake-beya. I hope the Koto-Ozekis' problems are just temporary due to the change in oyakata, and they can soon settle down and do their own sumo.

As I said above, I wouldn't be totally shocked to see yokozuna-ozeki again, thanks to three or all four of the current ozeki dropping out before any of the new talents can successfully separate themselves from the pack...the current situation just seems ripe for a repeat of the early 1990s mass extinction at the top when sumo went from 7 Y/O to 2 in around a year and a half. (And if we're disregarding Hokutenyu whose retirement came almost a year earlier than the rest, it was 6->2 in just about one year.)

Edited March 28, 2008 by Asashosakari

[Hananotaka]

I good-naturedly submit that that is weird and off-putting. I care not if one counts Ozeki in sanyaku or no, but please don't put Yokozuna in there. (Please!?...) (Showing respect...) (Bow...)

Only if you suggest a good term for the komusubi to yokozuna group.

I would suggest what the Japanese use: joi-jin. But it seems that term has been hijacked to refer to sanyaku and the top maegashira...

[Randomitsuki]

I good-naturedly submit that that is weird and off-putting. I care not if one counts Ozeki in sanyaku or no, but please don't put Yokozuna in there. (Please!?...) (Showing respect...) (Bow...)

Only if you suggest a good term for the komusubi to yokozuna group.

The glossary suggests the term yaku rikishi.

[Doitsuyama]

On a similar note I wonder if people here know that maegashira means every rikishi from maegashira 1 to the bottom of jonokuchi.

It's written that way on the banzuke of course, but now I really wonder if your Japanese friends take that meaning in everyday conversation?

[Hananotaka]

On a similar note I wonder if people here know that maegashira means every rikishi from maegashira 1 to the bottom of jonokuchi.

It's written that way on the banzuke of course, but now I really wonder if your Japanese friends take that meaning in everyday conversation?

For myself, if someone says, "Marumaruyama is maegashira 9 west," no one asks, "What division?" OTOH, no one would say, "Marumaruyama got kachikoshi at Juryo 2, so he's going to be a maegashira next basho."