Jakusotsu Posted January 23, 2008 Posted January 23, 2008 Nasty ketaguri by Tokitenku. Why do they keep picking on poor Dejima? (Shaking head...) I wondered and wondered why Dejima kept holding his knees after that bout, since it appeared to be hatakikomi and Dejima rolled on the shoulder. Nevertheless, having a trailing leg kicked out from you when you have the huge momentum and mass of Dejima, that puts loads of undue stress on both knees. Dejima obviously has bad knees to begin with so I consider it cruel and maybe even intentional harm to the aite. These things should be taken into consideration with ketaguri - I believe there are provisions for taking away someone's win in such a case. (I am not worthy...) Since You might not have been around at that time, watch this. (RealPlayer compatible viewer needed)
Peterao Posted January 23, 2008 Posted January 23, 2008 I wondered and wondered why Dejima kept holding his knees after that bout, since it appeared to be hatakikomi and Dejima rolled on the shoulder. Nevertheless, having a trailing leg kicked out from you when you have the huge momentum and mass of Dejima, that puts loads of undue stress on both knees. Dejima obviously has bad knees to begin with so I consider it cruel and maybe even intentional harm to the aite. These things should be taken into consideration with ketaguri - I believe there are provisions for taking away someone's win in such a case. (I am not worthy...) I missed this post on the first reading, or I would have addressed it earlier. Are you actually saying that a rikishi should be disqualified for using a legal manuever on an injured wrestler?? That's like saying that linebacker should be ejected from the game for sacking a quarterback with a bad knee! When an injured wrestler steps onto the dohyo, he accepts all responsibility for what follows. It is a rikishi's job to win, and to deliberately not take advantage of an opportunity to win shows that he is not capable of doing his job. Musashimaru showed mercy against Takanohana...and he has one less yusho to show for it as a result.
Asojima Posted January 23, 2008 Posted January 23, 2008 When an injured wrestler steps onto the dohyo, he accepts all responsibility for what follows. It is a rikishi's job to win, and to deliberately not take advantage of an opportunity to win shows that he is not capable of doing his job. I think I have to take strong exception to that statement. It has long been my impression that rikishi intentionally avoid taking advantage of an aite's known injury. Bad ankles are not kicked. Bad knees are not pressured. Bad elbows and shoulders are not twisted. Bad backs are not stressed unnecessarily. It seems to be a sumodo thing. Adversaries are respected.
kaiguma Posted January 23, 2008 Posted January 23, 2008 Gotta go with Peterao on this and disagree with you. Rikishi take advantage of any weakness or injury in my opinion. They might not pile it on too much but they definitely will use it if they know about it.Kinda goes against human nature to attack a friends weak points but holding back is worse. Sumo ain't for the faint hearted and no quarter should be asked or given during the actual bout. Well isn't their room for subtlety here? Reading Asojima's and yourn posts together seems to back up what I was saying. There is a way to take advantage of an injury without attacking it directly. Injured left elbow? go for left otsuke and your opponent will be immobilized. But a deliberate kotonage on an already injured elbow? That would be intent to injure. And I believe there is some reading of the Ozumo code stating you should not attack your aite with intent to injure. It's certainly not easy to pinpoint the fine line, and probably isn't put into practice. But it can be very frustrating to see someone surf so close to that line, between "going all out to get the win" and "doing anything to get the win." At the very least it showed a lot of mental weakness when Tokitenku executed that move on a senpai with notoriously bad knees. My observation, nothing more.
Peterao Posted January 24, 2008 Posted January 24, 2008 Gotta go with Peterao on this and disagree with you. Rikishi take advantage of any weakness or injury in my opinion. They might not pile it on too much but they definitely will use it if they know about it.Kinda goes against human nature to attack a friends weak points but holding back is worse. Sumo ain't for the faint hearted and no quarter should be asked or given during the actual bout. Well isn't their room for subtlety here? Reading Asojima's and yourn posts together seems to back up what I was saying. There is a way to take advantage of an injury without attacking it directly. Injured left elbow? go for left otsuke and your opponent will be immobilized. But a deliberate kotonage on an already injured elbow? That would be intent to injure. And I believe there is some reading of the Ozumo code stating you should not attack your aite with intent to injure. Kotenage itself is basically intent to injure regardless of whether or not the opponent is injured! You either go down or end up with a broken arm. Should we rescind Kaio's promotion because of all of his kotenage wins? I think that "intent to injure" is intended more along the lines of doing something outside the realm of trying to win a sumo match. I think it was Asashoryu who deliberately drove a knee into the back of a fallen opponent well after the match was decided...that is certainly unnecessary. But if sumo allows the kotenage technique, and a rikishi willingly steps onto the dohyo for combat, then kotenage, and all other legal techniques, are all fair game. And don't think that that same disadvantaged opponent won't take advantage of whatever he can to get the win for himself. Let us not forget the lessons learned from this match: 1. Mercy is for the weak. 2. There is no longer any such thing as kabaite. 3. Your opponent will do anything to win...so ya better do the same!
Coo-cook Posted January 24, 2008 Posted January 24, 2008 (edited) Gotta go with Peterao on this and disagree with you. Rikishi take advantage of any weakness or injury in my opinion. They might not pile it on too much but they definitely will use it if they know about it.Kinda goes against human nature to attack a friends weak points but holding back is worse. Sumo ain't for the faint hearted and no quarter should be asked or given during the actual bout. Well isn't their room for subtlety here? Reading Asojima's and yourn posts together seems to back up what I was saying. There is a way to take advantage of an injury without attacking it directly. Injured left elbow? go for left otsuke and your opponent will be immobilized. But a deliberate kotonage on an already injured elbow? That would be intent to injure. And I believe there is some reading of the Ozumo code stating you should not attack your aite with intent to injure. It's certainly not easy to pinpoint the fine line, and probably isn't put into practice. But it can be very frustrating to see someone surf so close to that line, between "going all out to get the win" and "doing anything to get the win." At the very least it showed a lot of mental weakness when Tokitenku executed that move on a senpai with notoriously bad knees. My observation, nothing more. I don't think it's intentional ...it's more of a quick henka type technic (reaction) often used in Mongolian wrestling. Is poor Dejima ketaguried because of his injured leg?....No. It's his explosive powerful buldozing style. (There is simply no room for thinking of his injured leg. And, I'm sure Asa and Tokitenku felt uneasy after everything was over). So,you will likely see ketaguri from Mongolian rikishis.....specially from guys who wrestled Mongolian sumo from very young age....Asa,Ama,Tokitenku, Seiro etc. Probably, you don't see ketaguri from Kyokutenho, Ruyo, Koryu and others who have no previous Mongolian wrestling experience. (Old habits die hard.) Edited January 24, 2008 by Coo-cook
sekihiryu Posted January 24, 2008 Posted January 24, 2008 bandwidth exceeded? your signature photos need some attention Nishi, my advice ditch photobucket for image shack, they have no silly bandwidth issues, unless its like a 100MB an hour or more. Dejima is far too one dimensional for his own good, it wasnt a pretty win by Tenku but it was a win. I wish I had started watching sumo regularly 2 years eairler than I did when Dejima was a more dynamic rikisihi on the up.
Kintamayama Posted January 24, 2008 Posted January 24, 2008 We are seeing "Upgrade to Pro" with an image. As if you started working for photo*uckit or something..Twice.
aderechelsea Posted January 24, 2008 Posted January 24, 2008 nope John .. its the way Kinta says .....
Peterao Posted January 24, 2008 Posted January 24, 2008 (edited) Me too. Try refreshing your cache and checking again. Edited January 24, 2008 by Peterao
Doitsuyama Posted January 24, 2008 Author Posted January 24, 2008 I've deleted a lot of stuff on photobucket which should help. Any difference? As the message said it's a bandwidth issue, not a storage space issue.
Kintamayama Posted January 24, 2008 Posted January 24, 2008 I've deleted a lot of stuff on photobucket which should help. Any difference? Yes there is-the images are gone now.
Doitsuyama Posted January 24, 2008 Author Posted January 24, 2008 I've deleted a lot of stuff on photobucket which should help. Any difference? Yes there is-the images are gone now. It didn't work, but he changed his signature after that.
Kintamayama Posted January 24, 2008 Posted January 24, 2008 I've deleted a lot of stuff on photobucket which should help. Any difference? Yes there is-the images are gone now. It didn't work, but he changed his signature after that. OK, but I kinda miss the warnings now..
Peterao Posted January 27, 2008 Posted January 27, 2008 (edited) A third straight shukun-sho for Ama? I guess they'll be handing out two this time (Kisenosato and Ama) unless one of them fails to achieve his KK. I thought that they only give out shukun-sho for beating the yusho winner? This time there's someone to catch Hakuho when he falters... I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure it's available (though not guaranteed) to anyone who can defeat a Yokozuna and still get KK. I seriously doubt it is for beating the yusho-winner, since the vote is held sometimes before yusho has been decided... Many times a reward is conditional, such as for a rikishi winning his final match. Yes, but never conditional as in: "Ama will win the shukunsho as long as Hakuho wins the yusho tomorrow." Always seems to be conditional solely on the prospective award winner's performance. Today's announced condition: "Ama will win the shukunsho as long as Hakuho wins the yusho." I'm not the kind of guy to say "I told you so." So can someone please say it in my place? (Holiday feeling...) Edited January 27, 2008 by Peterao
aderechelsea Posted January 27, 2008 Posted January 27, 2008 well ... Kisenosato got one too ... (Holiday feeling...)
philafuji Posted January 27, 2008 Posted January 27, 2008 A third straight shukun-sho for Ama? I guess they'll be handing out two this time (Kisenosato and Ama) unless one of them fails to achieve his KK. I thought that they only give out shukun-sho for beating the yusho winner? This time there's someone to catch Hakuho when he falters... I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure it's available (though not guaranteed) to anyone who can defeat a Yokozuna and still get KK. I seriously doubt it is for beating the yusho-winner, since the vote is held sometimes before yusho has been decided... Many times a reward is conditional, such as for a rikishi winning his final match. Yes, but never conditional as in: "Ama will win the shukunsho as long as Hakuho wins the yusho tomorrow." Always seems to be conditional solely on the prospective award winner's performance. Today's announced condition: "Ama will win the shukunsho as long as Hakuho wins the yusho." I'm not the kind of guy to say "I told you so." So can someone please say it in my place? (Clapping wildly...) Petero, let me help you out here. Petero told us so. philafuji
philafuji Posted January 27, 2008 Posted January 27, 2008 A third straight shukun-sho for Ama? I guess they'll be handing out two this time (Kisenosato and Ama) unless one of them fails to achieve his KK. I thought that they only give out shukun-sho for beating the yusho winner? This time there's someone to catch Hakuho when he falters... I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure it's available (though not guaranteed) to anyone who can defeat a Yokozuna and still get KK. I seriously doubt it is for beating the yusho-winner, since the vote is held sometimes before yusho has been decided... Many times a reward is conditional, such as for a rikishi winning his final match. Yes, but never conditional as in: "Ama will win the shukunsho as long as Hakuho wins the yusho tomorrow." Always seems to be conditional solely on the prospective award winner's performance. Today's announced condition: "Ama will win the shukunsho as long as Hakuho wins the yusho." I'm not the kind of guy to say "I told you so." So can someone please say it in my place? (Clapping wildly...) Petero, let me help you out here. Petero told us so. philafuji I need more coffee and brain power. The coffee is no problem. The brain power is another story altogether. Sorry for the wrong spelling. The name should have been spelled Peterao.
Asashosakari Posted January 27, 2008 Posted January 27, 2008 /collapses into a convulsing heap due to the Usenet cascading flashbacks...
Mark Buckton Posted January 27, 2008 Posted January 27, 2008 A third straight shukun-sho for Ama? I guess they'll be handing out two this time (Kisenosato and Ama) unless one of them fails to achieve his KK. I thought that they only give out shukun-sho for beating the yusho winner? This time there's someone to catch Hakuho when he falters... I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure it's available (though not guaranteed) to anyone who can defeat a Yokozuna and still get KK. I seriously doubt it is for beating the yusho-winner, since the vote is held sometimes before yusho has been decided... think this topic is being covered in a couple of threads now but I can tell you that Hak winning the yusho was a definite requirement according to those voting for it yesterday. I didn't hear TV / radio as I have said elsewhere but did hear from a person in the actual press box. Perhaps as he is a sekiwake and has beaten Hak before.... perhaps the SFM glossary needs an update.
Doitsuyama Posted January 27, 2008 Author Posted January 27, 2008 think this topic is being covered in a couple of threads now but I can tell you that Hak winning the yusho was a definite requirement according to those voting for it yesterday. I didn't hear TV / radio as I have said elsewhere but did hear from a person in the actual press box. Perhaps as he is a sekiwake and has beaten Hak before.... perhaps the SFM glossary needs an update. Certainly sansho requirements for a sekiwake are higher, yes. I also like to think that it had to with Kisenosato already having 9 wins while Ama only had 8, but probably your argument is more valid. Btw, could you give us a link to the SFM glossary?
Mark Buckton Posted January 27, 2008 Posted January 27, 2008 (edited) but probably your argument is more valid don't give me such a shock on a Monday morning Doits! SFM glossary - mistype - meant SF. Edited January 27, 2008 by Mark Buckton
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