A question about beya hierarchy

[messi19]

It is a widely-known fact that the lower ranked rikishi (speaking in very general terms) have to do a variety of things including getting up earlier in the morning, preparing meals, cleaning tasks or having to endure long periods of Butsukari-geiko etc..As they move up the banzuke these tasks become less and other now lower-ranked ones take over.

I was however wondering how exactly this system works. Is a sandanme rikishi clearcut "above" a jonidan wrestler in terms of hierarchy position? For instace a veteran spending all or most of his career in low sandanme/high jonidan will obviously initially be higher up the order in terms of hierarchy compared to a shin-deshi, but what happens if the former shin-deshi within a year has made it to high sandanme? Are roles completely reversed right away? Or does the experience of the veteran still count for something in terms of inner-beya hierarchy? Or is there not such a clearcut distinction made between /sandanme/jonidan/jonokuchi wrestlers? The fact that a jonidan rikishi was among those torturing Tokitaizan would point against it, but then again Tokitaizan had just joined the Tokitsukaze beya having only done mae-zumo and these are apparently always the very last down the order.

Or is all of this something that we will just never know?

Edited December 1, 2007 by messi19

[philafuji]

I like your question. I know very little about that part of the sumo world.

I hope someone in the know will respond to your question.

Happy Sumo

philafuji

[Hashira]

Here is my quick answer, which is mostly based on knowledge gleaned from this forum, so I'm sure the people who are the original sources of said knowledge will come along with a better answer:

It all happens immediately. If one rikishi overtakes another on the banzuke, not even into a higher division, even just a higher rank within the same division, he will become the higher man on the totem pole. There are certainly considerations for age and previous rank, I doubt you'd see an older former sekitori being a tsukebito often, but theroretically everything is based on rank.

i hope this info is correct, and have a question of my own to add: when does this change in order occur? say after a basho it is clear that two rikishi will swith position because of their record. do they maintain their respective positions until the banzuke is released, or do they switch immediately?

[messi19]

Interesting questions Hashira. I have been wondering about those too. With regard to considerations of previous rank: Recently there have been quite a few rikishi, who had proven themselves in makushita, dropping to the very bottom of the banzuke because of injury. I wonder if they are really then temporarily further down the internal beya order than a career jonidan guy when it is clear that they have only fallen because of injury.

Edited December 2, 2007 by messi19

[kaiguma]

The age vs rank question is a very complex one. I would guess that when all is said and done, an older and more experienced former sekitori is regarded much more than the new guy who just got into makushita, even if the first has now fallen to Sandanme. In fact, he can probably still give orders to the rikishi who has passed him in rank, so long as they have not passed his highest former rank.

To go even further, I am pretty sure Ichinoya (career high Sandanme 6) was not scrubbing any toilets prior to Kyushu basho.

[Sasanishiki]

I would say even if someone had a lot of experience but had not made sekitori they would be treated with a decent degree of respect. It depends of course on the number of rikishi and the size of the heya. If we are talking about a small heya I would think that the hierarchy would be less in force than in a bigger one because most rikishi would have to chip in and do some work.

If I can relate some personal experience working in an amusement park in japan about 15 years ago. There was an old guy in my section who was not even in the top four guys in charge. The head was actually relatively young (mid-30s) compared to a few other guys (late 40s, early 50s) and this older guy who would have been late 50s at least. Basically the chain of command came down to the position each one had because this is how they would be judged if there were any errors and the like. However, almost invariably they included this old guy to see what he thought about the situation and gave him an opportunit to share his ideas. Often I don't think he added anything new or that they hadn't thought of, but they respected that he had been around enough and should be given the opportunity to share. He, for his part, was pretty quiet and did not try to push his ideas unless asked. He realised they were in charge but also acknowledged that they were asking him to contribute from time to time.

Perhaps the same applies in certain ways in a heya. Young guys move up due to their ability and strength, but perhaps they don't have the experience and so draw on their elders (even though the elders might be lower in rank). However, when it comes to ceratin responsibilities they are judged on their level in the banzuke so it reverts to the hierarchy again. As I've said above, though, I'm sure veterans (even if they've slugged it out in the lower ranks) get a better ride because of their experience and the other ways they can contribute than cleaning the toilets like the shin-deshi.

I would think there is only significant difference in jobs and expectations based on being in different divisions. I would think there is some difference between makushita rikishi and sandanme in the way they are treated. However, I don't think there would be much of a difference between two sandanme rikishi separated by only 10-20 levels within the division.