"Asashoryu facing YDC" banter

[Asashosakari]

(...and yes, I'm quoting is for Asashosakari to read (In a state of confusion...) )

Of course he knows I'm ignoring him. I specifically told him so by PM right before I added him to my ignore list months ago.

I don't think chronic memory loss is something Dr. Honda can do anything about, but I may be wrong about the benefits of foreskin surgery.

(And this thread is going to end up moved to Off-Topic sooner or later, I just know it.)

[Bilu]

Hmmm..

Here are my ramblings on this matter:

1. A basho without Asashoryu (at this time) is a basho with an * next to the winner's name.

2. This is due to Ryu not able to fight from 'unnatural' cause (I mean - not due to his health, etc).

3. Sure, he will retire some day. But he has not, as of yet, and truly winning a yusho should be against the best in the business.

4. Sure we like Ryu (though he has his faults): he has true greatness. Just imagine how was it like to watch sumo 2003-06 with only the likes of Taikai and Osh on the dohyo.

5. Hakuho is awesome to. That's why we are angry that we were deprived to see him compete against Ryu the last two bashos.

6. In a few years, we may feel as strong toward Hakuho. Right now, we still favor Ryu as we have 5-6 years of great experiences with him.

7. Some things to like about Ryu (compared with Hakuho): he's more versatile, he's smaller and constantly fighting against size advantage (we like Ama, too!).

OK, I guess you all agree. Good night.

[HenryK]

You've been the one who talked about meaningfulness with regard to the next few bashos, unless I do not understand the meaning of "upcoming". This led me to wonder if the meaningfulness of the next few bashos will be diminshed if Asashoryu gets injured, or even more interesting, if Hakuho cannot participate. By way of illustration I referred to prior examples where beloved yokozunae did not take part.

And I answered the question, I thought.

Whether an outstanding rikishi (indeed, this holds for Hakuho as much as for Asashoryu) cannot participate because he is injured, or whether he is absent because the sumo federation sidelines him makes a big difference. It's pointless to complain about the first case. Yes, it may be bad for sumo (because it makes for a less interesting basho), but noone can do anything about it.

In the second case, however, the NSK organizes a basho while preventing the strongest rikishi to participate. It doesn't need to but it does. Of course this devalues the basho. As mentioned a few times before, this is like a soccer World Cup where FIFA prevents Brazil from participating. Most soccer fans would refuse to recognize the eventual winner as legit World Champions -- and not only fans from Brazil.

Similarly, the value of many medals won at Olympic Games of 1980 or 1984 was badly damaged by the forced non-participation of world class athletes. Or do you believe Thierry Vignon was a credible pole vault champion in 1984 in the absence of Sergei Bubka? Or that the 1980 Soviet male 4X100 relay team were credible Olympic champions in the absence of the Americans?

I for my part don't.

[obinishiki]

Hmmm..

Here are my ramblings on this matter:

1. A basho without Asashoryu (at this time) is a basho with an * next to the winner's name.

2. This is due to Ryu not able to fight from 'unnatural' cause (I mean - not due to his health, etc).

3. Sure, he will retire some day. But he has not, as of yet, and truly winning a yusho should be against the best in the business.

4. Sure we like Ryu (though he has his faults): he has true greatness. Just imagine how was it like to watch sumo 2003-06 with only the likes of Taikai and Osh on the dohyo.

5. Hakuho is awesome to. That's why we are angry that we were deprived to see him compete against Ryu the last two bashos.

6. In a few years, we may feel as strong toward Hakuho. Right now, we still favor Ryu as we have 5-6 years of great experiences with him.

7. Some things to like about Ryu (compared with Hakuho): he's more versatile, he's smaller and constantly fighting against size advantage (we like Ama, too!).

OK, I guess you all agree. Good night.

Are you a king (In a state of confusion...) or something and do I have to assume that you're speaking for me too? Just wondering.

Edited November 28, 2007 by obinishiki

[Afrozuna]

Hmmm..

Here are my ramblings on this matter:

1. A basho without Asashoryu (at this time) is a basho with an * next to the winner's name.

2. This is due to Ryu not able to fight from 'unnatural' cause (I mean - not due to his health, etc).

3. Sure, he will retire some day. But he has not, as of yet, and truly winning a yusho should be against the best in the business.

4. Sure we like Ryu (though he has his faults): he has true greatness. Just imagine how was it like to watch sumo 2003-06 with only the likes of Taikai and Osh on the dohyo.

5. Hakuho is awesome to. That's why we are angry that we were deprived to see him compete against Ryu the last two bashos.

6. In a few years, we may feel as strong toward Hakuho. Right now, we still favor Ryu as we have 5-6 years of great experiences with him.

7. Some things to like about Ryu (compared with Hakuho): he's more versatile, he's smaller and constantly fighting against size advantage (we like Ama, too!).

OK, I guess you all agree. Good night.

I must say this just about sums up my position on this issue. Of course I like Chiyotaikai too. That's why I''m still in bad shape after that kyujo.

[Afrozuna]

I do feel that Miss Uchidate is just adding more fuel to the fire by making irresponsible comments like"He should have resigned long ago". When someone as prominent as her says this it just brings the sport into further disrepute.

[HenryK]

Hmmm..

Here are my ramblings on this matter:

1. A basho without Asashoryu (at this time) is a basho with an * next to the winner's name.

2. This is due to Ryu not able to fight from 'unnatural' cause (I mean - not due to his health, etc).

3. Sure, he will retire some day. But he has not, as of yet, and truly winning a yusho should be against the best in the business.

4. Sure we like Ryu (though he has his faults): he has true greatness. Just imagine how was it like to watch sumo 2003-06 with only the likes of Taikai and Osh on the dohyo.

5. Hakuho is awesome to. That's why we are angry that we were deprived to see him compete against Ryu the last two bashos.

6. In a few years, we may feel as strong toward Hakuho. Right now, we still favor Ryu as we have 5-6 years of great experiences with him.

7. Some things to like about Ryu (compared with Hakuho): he's more versatile, he's smaller and constantly fighting against size advantage (we like Ama, too!).

OK, I guess you all agree. Good night.

I must say this just about sums up my position on this issue. Of course I like Chiyotaikai too. That's why I''m still in bad shape after that kyujo.

Also sums up my position nicely. After all, it's just common sense.... :-P

[Kuroyama]

I do feel that Miss Uchidate is just adding more fuel to the fire by making irresponsible comments like"He should have resigned long ago". When someone as prominent as her says this it just brings the sport into further disrepute.

This speaks to my remark about NSK competence from another thread. IMO, a skilled PR machine would be able to turn this into a dramatic soap opera and use it in a positive way to fill seats. That's all American professional wrestling is, after all, and sumo has the advantage of being genuine competition. Most of the time, anyway.

[Kintamayama]

Hmmm..

Here are my ramblings on this matter:

1. A basho without Asashoryu (at this time) is a basho with an * next to the winner's name.

2. This is due to Ryu not able to fight from 'unnatural' cause (I mean - not due to his health, etc).

3. Sure, he will retire some day. But he has not, as of yet, and truly winning a yusho should be against the best in the business.

4. Sure we like Ryu etc.

So, number 2 means that if Asa was injured and not suspended, the * will be gone? Isn't that pure semantics?? That would annul 3 as well, as "the best in the business" is purely subjective. I'm not sure that he was the "best in the business" at the July basho. He definitely did not have a good basho (meaning a totally dominating basho ala the Asa in his prime) and neither did he in May (10-5 to Hakuhou's zensho..come on..). In any case, may I remind you that according to the Kyokai doctor, he WAS injured and was supposed to rest for 6 weeks, and there was a good chance of his missing Aki. Now, if you didn't have number 2 at all, I could understand-but the number 2 is there..

As for the rest, you are definitely totally correct. But "what ifs" don't "eat" in my book, adoni..

Edited November 29, 2007 by Kintamayama

[Jakusotsu]

I do feel that Miss Uchidate is just adding more fuel to the fire by making irresponsible comments like"He should have resigned long ago".

Please don't twist the words in her mouth. What she said was (according to Madorosumaru's translation):

"As far as I'm concerned, he is someone that has already retired."

That's a big difference. You make it sound like she wished for him to retire, which she never said in this context. She's just stating a matter of fact with a sad note about it.

I also got the impression that some of the more vocal attackers of Uchidate hold her and the YDC responsible for Asashoryu's suspension penalty. That was Kyokai business only - the YDC has no executive powers at all. However, to some people they are all the same kind of "jerks", no matter who...

[XiaoTan]

No I am certainly no one's sidekick. I just wish you and a few others would inject a consistent degree of intellectual thought into what you write. Pure reactionism is boring and infantile. And a lot of us are really tired of it.

Therefore, I feel the need to speak up....

Ooh yes - that pretty much sums up my feelings. (Nodding yes...)

A lot of the "I defend Asashoryu" camp gets way too personal in their statements. Isn't it all the rage tehse days to have global awareness days for anything - Can't we declare - say - 05 December - the global day for "more civility in sumo arguments".

[Bilu]

Hmmm..

Here are my ramblings on this matter:

1. A basho without Asashoryu (at this time) is a basho with an * next to the winner's name.

2. This is due to Ryu not able to fight from 'unnatural' cause (I mean - not due to his health, etc).

3. Sure, he will retire some day. But he has not, as of yet, and truly winning a yusho should be against the best in the business.

4. Sure we like Ryu etc.

So, number 2 means that if Asa was injured and not suspended, the * will be gone? Isn't that pure semantics?? That would annul 3 as well, as "the best in the business" is purely subjective. I'm not sure that he was the "best in the business" at the July basho. He definitely did not have a good basho (meaning a totally dominating basho ala the Asa in his prime) and neither did he in May (10-5 to Hakuhou's zensho..come on..). In any case, may I remind you that according to the Kyokai doctor, he WAS injured and was supposed to rest for 6 weeks, and there was a good chance of his missing Aki. Now, if you didn't have number 2 at all, I could understand-but the number 2 is there..

As for the rest, you are definitely totally correct. But "what ifs" don't "eat" in my book, adoni..

As for 2 - this is not pure semantics. People here already had given the Moscow Olympics as an example.

Say the NSK would sideline Ryu and Hakuho. Tiakai, Mickey and Ama will get to win the next 3 - will this put an * over their yusho? Certainly.

Being injured is a different story, as it is part of the sport.

As for 3 - I didn't mean to imply Ryu is the best in the business. I meant 'the best..' in the plural form. I think Ryu and Hakuho are the best in the business. So, I think my reasoning stands.

Lastly, I think I can answer you why Ryu is coming back (my guess, of course).

As many people wrote here before, the best thing that could have happened to Ryu is the rising of another yokozuna.

Now, it has happened.

Asashoryo was cruising for sometime before Hakuho had risen. Now, the drama unfolds - will he be able to be as dominant fighting against a strong yokozuna as Hakuho? Certainly he will need to reach higher levels of performance to attain this.

Ryu has the opportunity to live this legend, and possibly become the greatest of all time. This reminds me of MJ's first comeback - he was no longer the dominant athlete he was, so he 're-invented' his basketball, and started playing with his back to the basket, etc.

This is THE challenge.

[Kintamayama]

As for 2 - this is not pure semantics. People here already had given the Moscow Olympics as an example.

Not a good example. Half the world was out then. If , say , Takasago Ichimon were to be banned, that would be a good comparison.

Lastly, I think I can answer you why Ryu is coming back (my guess, of course).

Asashoryo was cruising for sometime before Hakuho had risen. Now, the drama unfolds - will he be able to be as dominant fighting against a strong yokozuna as Hakuho? Certainly he will need to reach higher levels of performance to attain this.

Ryu has the opportunity to live this legend, and possibly become the greatest of all time. This reminds me of MJ's first comeback - he was no longer the dominant athlete he was, so he 're-invented' his basketball, and started playing with his back to the basket, etc.

This is THE challenge.

OK, now you're talking. I didn't think of this angle. This is a great possible answer to my "why" question.

Hats off.

Edited November 29, 2007 by Kintamayama

[Bilu]

..Just to elaborate on this some more..

Many times, I was thinking about Hakuho's 'bad luck'. If he was 20 years old in 2002 (or so) and there was no Asa - wouldn't HE amassed the 20+ yushos?

I tend to think he would have. Hey, even rising at the time he did (and if Asa wasn't around) he would have been close to 10, right now.

So, it is Asa's 'luck' not to have had Hakuho around most of that time.

But... this kind of puts an * on Asa'a quest to sumo greatness, right?

My 'conclusion' is that if Hakuho wasn't around - maybe Asa would have retired. But, now that he's there, Asa has a challenge, both personal (with Hakuho) and with history: proving he IS the greatest.

[sumofan]

So much hatred... (Nodding yes...)

I have been away for only half a year and look what happened to this place.

I missed the whole Asa soap. In fact, when I came back a couple of days ago, I wondered why I couldn't find the reason for Asa not competing.

Asa has a long history of neglecting his Yokozuna duties whenever it seemed fit, and his NSK / YDC enemies have made fuss about any and all real and imaginary transgressions.

So much has happened in fact that you can argue for any side with good arguments.

[Doitsuyama]

So much hatred... (Nodding yes...)

I have been away for only half a year and look what happened to this place.

I missed the whole Asa soap. In fact, when I came back a couple of days ago, I wondered why I couldn't find the reason for Asa not competing.

You really came back at the wrong time - it has been a very lovely three months after Asa debate I died down.

[Hananotaka]

I also got the impression that some of the more vocal attackers of Uchidate hold her and the YDC responsible for Asashoryu's suspension penalty. That was Kyokai business only - the YDC has no executive powers at all. However, to some people they are all the same kind of "jerks", no matter who...

I think a good many fans are simply unaware the purpose of the YDC is threefold:

1) Offer recommendations to the Kyokai for Yokozuna promotion or retirement.

2) Ride any and every Yokozuna's ass from the moment they are promoted until they retire.

3) Provide the press with juicy soundbytes whenever an Ozeki makes a run for the tsuna.

The practical upshot of #2 is that no matter what a Yokozuna does, it's never enough. Go 15-0? The YDC says, "Good job this basho. Now dedicate yourself to training and do it next time, too. Oh, and a few of your bouts looked bad, even though you won. Fix that next time."

Why did Musashimaru say "Getting there is easy. It's after the promotion when it gets hard." Because this is the way it is for them all. Asashoryu has not been treated at all exceptionally. And to be perfectly frank, his treatment gets pretty overblown in the gaijin sumo community.

I'm no fan of the YDC. I think it should be disbanded. But it's pretty distasteful to see people just slag on Makiko Uchidate for doing what's she's supposed to do: hold a man to the impossible standard of a god.

[Asashosakari]

Why did Musashimaru say "Getting there is easy. It's after the promotion when it gets hard." Because this is the way it is for them all. Asashoryu has not been treated at all exceptionally. And to be perfectly frank, his treatment gets pretty overblown in the gaijin sumo community.

The treatment of all foreign rikishi tends to get overblown by the gaijin community, in my opinion; Asashoryu is merely the foremost exhibit. It's not as prevalent here anymore (thank goodness), but there are certainly places where any random mono-ii decision that goes against a foreign rikishi (whether justified or not) is seen as sign #1791 of institutionalized racism etc. by the Kyokai.

I'll never quite get it, but for some reason lots of non-Japanese fans (a minority, but an extremely vocal one, to be sure) feel the need to make everything an "us vs. them" thing, which ironically enough plays right into the hands of that minority of hardline Kyokai members who remain suspicious of both foreign rikishi and foreign fans which said fans purport to be criticizing. Not that it's surprising or anything...extremists on opposite sides of an issue always tend to feed off one another, with the reasonable majority caught between the battle lines.

[HenryK]

Hmmm..

Here are my ramblings on this matter:

1. A basho without Asashoryu (at this time) is a basho with an * next to the winner's name.

2. This is due to Ryu not able to fight from 'unnatural' cause (I mean - not due to his health, etc).

3. Sure, he will retire some day. But he has not, as of yet, and truly winning a yusho should be against the best in the business.

4. Sure we like Ryu etc.

So, number 2 means that if Asa was injured and not suspended, the * will be gone? Isn't that pure semantics??

Not at all. It's a perfectly sensible point.

as "the best in the business" is purely subjective.

Sure. Winning 21 out of 29 subsequent bashos is totally unrelated to "being the best in the business".

May I ask you: Asahosryu is 27-0 against Kotomitsuki since end-2002, if I haven't miscounted. Is the statement "Asashoryu is better than Kotomitsuki" also purely subjective?

[Gusoyama]

1) Asashoryu is the best right now, or was before his suspension.

2) Hakuho did not become Yokozuna because of Asashoryu's suspension

3) I don't think there's a difference between being out for suspension vs being out for injury, in terms of competition. You can't assume he'd win the two he participated in, especially if he was injured, as he claimed.

4) Head to head Asa vs Hakuho:Here

5) I want to see a MNI on day 15 with 2 healthy yokozuna. That's all I care about. I don't care about this apology stuff. A leopard can't change its spots.

6) Sumo is not Asashoryu's life. If it is, why is he so committed to leaving after he retires? And don't say "He couldn't stand being part of the NSK machine", because he could do a lot to try and change it from the inside. WINNING is his life. He's ultra-competitive, which is okay, but don't get passion for winning mixed up with passion for the sport.

Edited to add: Does anyone else find it bizzare that the Asashoryu zombies left when his suspension started, and came back on the day it ended? I can understand being a fair weather fan, but to do this TO THE DAY astounds me.

Edited November 29, 2007 by Gusoyama

[Asashosakari]

5) I want to see a MNI on day 15 with 2 healthy yokozuna. That's all I care about. I don't care about this apology stuff. A leopard can't change its spots.

I sort of agree, and sort of not...I care about the apology tour inasmuch as it needs to be convincing enough to get him back into everybody's good graces "officially" so we don't get the YDC (or worse, the public) calling for his retirement even before Hatsu basho rolls around. Personally, though? Couldn't care less either.

6) Sumo is not Asashoryu's life. If it is, why is he so committed to leaving after he retires?

I don't know if he's really committed to leaving...actually, I'm not sure if he knows, or at least whether he knew what he was going to do up until this whole suspension business happened. From what I've seen in the Japanese sports newspapers there's seemingly a different story every six months or so, from "he told Takasago-oyakata that he wants to naturalize and take the ichidai-toshiyori" to "he's planning to do something sumo-related in Mongolia" to "he's going to go into business in Mongolia" to "he's really interested in those MMA offers after retiring". Lots of it has certainly been rumour-mongering by interested parties, but the sheer breadth of suggested scenarios is interesting nevertheless.

And don't say "He couldn't stand being part of the NSK machine", because he could do a lot to try and change it from the inside.

That's pretty much the saddest part. As far as I'm concerned, if only he had managed to be a bit more of a model yokozuna, he could have been the Mongolian Takamiyama (even moreso than Kyokushuzan) as far as getting Mongolians established as a regular part of Ozumo, not just as transient competitors, but as an actual part of its fabric. That's probably for Kyokutenho to do, now. (Edit: Or for Hakuho.)

Edited November 29, 2007 by Asashosakari

[Shomishuu]

So much hatred... ;-)

I have been away for only half a year and look what happened to this place.

I missed the whole Asa soap. In fact, when I came back a couple of days ago, I wondered why I couldn't find the reason for Asa not competing.

Asa has a long history of neglecting his Yokozuna duties whenever it seemed fit, and his NSK / YDC enemies have made fuss about any and all real and imaginary transgressions.

So much has happened in fact that you can argue for any side with good arguments.

For someone who has 'been away' and just found out about all this, you've capsulized the entire issue very accurately, at least as far as this discussion board is concerned. (Nodding yes...)

[Ikh Mongol Dagvadorj]

5) I want to see a MNI on day 15 with 2 healthy yokozuna. That's all I care about. I don't care about this apology stuff. A leopard can't change its spots.

exactly,. One can not make leopard a cat.

This apolody drama is very Japanese cultural thing, I guess. Symbolically It will serve for whose who need facelift.

Asashoryu does not need to apologize for anything, he is already finished the sentence. But he can go through whatever the apology formality. It does not mean that he is humilated, it is just technical procedure to return to the dohyo

6) Sumo is not Asashoryu's life. WINNING is his life. He's ultra-competitive, which is okay, but don't get passion for winning mixed up with passion for the sport.

Currently, sumo is his life. That is why he is coming back because he can not be as much competitve as he is on the dohyo.

I guess he is ambitious guy , reason to coma back is also sometihng to do with his ambition of finsh off what he supposed to do ( what is he is expected to do)

Sumo is not his life in the future, unless some of those in YDC and NSC, apologyze to the Grand Champion for their attempt to humilate " NUMERU UNO". In general Japanese media and public should apologize in the future. But it will defend on success of Asashoryu.

Edited to add: Does anyone else find it bizzare that the Asashoryu zombies left when his suspension started, and came back on the day it ended? I can understand being a fair weather fan, but to do this TO THE DAY astounds me.

It is nothing bizarre about that the Asashoryu "zombies" (as you spelled out) left when his suspension started, and came back on the day it ended. It is perfectly normal to say their own opinion about their favorite.

It is not only dissapearance of some forumers in virtual space, it is about empty seats at the Fukuoka Kokusai Center throughout the Kyushu Grand Sumo Tournament, even Two companies associated with Asashoryu joined him in withdrawing from the past two tournaments.

If there is no one to cheer for, why go? Are those japanese audience and companies also "ZOMBIES"

Now all the tickets of next basho is sold out, all the "ZOMBIES" (as you spelled out) are coming back to see Asashoryu,

Long live the King

[HenryK]

1) Asashoryu is the best right now, or was before his suspension.

Agreed.

2) Hakuho did not become Yokozuna because of Asashoryu's suspension

Agreed (obviously).

3) I don't think there's a difference between being out for suspension vs being out for injury, in terms of competition.

Not in terms of competition. But in terms of the legitimacy of the yusho.

You can't assume he'd win the two he participated in, especially if he was injured, as he claimed.

Caa't assume it, but certainly also can't rule it out.

4) Head to head Asa vs Hakuho:Here

I am looking forward for this rivalry to play out.

5) I want to see a MNI on day 15 with 2 healthy yokozuna. That's all I care about. I don't care about this apology stuff. A leopard can't change its spots.

Agreed.

6) Sumo is not Asashoryu's life. If it is, why is he so committed to leaving after he retires? And don't say "He couldn't stand being part of the NSK machine", because he could do a lot to try and change it from the inside.

Maybe, maybe not. I don't think he is the type who would make a good functionary (which, then, is not much different from those running the NSK at the moment).

WINNING is his life. He's ultra-competitive, which is okay, but don't get passion for winning mixed up with passion for the sport.

Winning sumo competitions, that is.

[Ikh Mongol Dagvadorj]

And don't say "He couldn't stand being part of the NSK machine", because he could do a lot to try and change it from the inside.

That's pretty much the saddest part. As far as I'm concerned, if only he had managed to be a bit more of a model yokozuna, he could have been the Mongolian Takamiyama (even moreso than Kyokushuzan) as far as getting Mongolians established as a regular part of Ozumo, not just as transient competitors, but as an actual part of its fabric. That's probably for Kyokutenho to do, now. (Edit: Or for Hakuho.)

In order to make Mongolians as an actual part of its fabric, these 2 Mongolian Yokozuna's should establish premanent dohyō in Mongolia somewhere near Ulaanbaatar. Bring a original sumo dohyo with its original clay mud, straw, dust and sacred spiritiuality and shinto monks and Japanese rikishis. With this initiation of Mongolian Dohyo, sumo culture will be transplanted in Mongolian soil in grass root level. Mongolian Sumo Schools will be established, with Asa, Shuzan and others starting own sumo school. Even interested parties of japanese sumo stables should establish its own branch in Mongolia

It will be great cultural exchange programm ever.

- enable to mutual understanding and accepting the both culture

- It is very positie expansion for Sumo and postive promotion of Japanese culture

- enriching the Mongolian culture and wrestling world among the people

Ps:- Of course, there will be opposing parties-ultra nationalist, conservatives. concerned citizens in both countries and among the fans too. That establishment will not harm both sides -Japanese Ozuma or Mongolian Traditional Wrestling.

Japan Ozuma can go on as usual in its time frame, limited space of dohyo under strict regulation of NCS

Mongolian Tradition Wrestling -бөх, b

Edited November 29, 2007 by Ikh Mongol Dagvadorj