Tokitsukaze Beya History

[Kotonosato]

All this talk about preserving the great names of Tokitsukaze and Futabayama has got me thinking:

Wasn't it Futabayama who joined a cult and fought off about a dozen cops when they tried to arrest his "goddess"? Was this before or after he became a stablemaster? Before or after he became rijicho?

[Chisaiyama]

Wasn't it Futabayama who joined a cult and fought off about a dozen cops when they tried to arrest his "goddess"?

This was the first I had heard about this but after a little research I found an interesting couple of articles at banzuke.com on the subject.

The articles indicate that this was about a year after he retired so I would have to believe it would have been before his Rijicho days.

A quick check at the Oyakata Database confirms he was Rijicho from 1957/05 until 1968/12.

http://www.banzuke.com/02-1/msg00112.html

Edited October 9, 2007 by Chisaiyama

[Jonosuke]

Pause to study the life of the great yokozuna before you make a trollish statement.

[Sasanishiki]

Pause to study the life of the great yokozuna before you make a trollish statement.

This is not trollish behaviour, I believe. This incident is factual, and can be verified in various accounts. If you would like a readily accessible one, I believe John Dower, the eminent historian of Japan and Japanese-American relations, has passing reference to this incident among consideration of this group in his book "Embracing Defeat" (which is a fine read, informative, scholarly but also very readable).

A question like this is interesting because it brings into light the personal side of rikishi. I believe we are seeing that with the current turmoils that are gripping ozumo. These men are rikishi, oyakata, riji, rijicho, etc, they live and are to embody sumo institutions, sumo orthodoxy, and the way of life within sumo. However, underneath it all, not matter how we hold them up as paragons of virtue, they are also human beings. As such, some are fallible at times. This is not irretrievable, and it is not to say that they and other rikishi aren't good men, but we need to realise that sometimes they have feet of clay or do unexpected things.

So, for example, we have a former yokozuna whose marriage had been on the rocks and was separated from his wife finally getting divorced (Wakanohana). He is human and unfortunately his relationship wasn't able to survive for whatever reason.

We have a current yokozuna who is on leave from his duties due to injury and he gets himself embroiled in a media circus because he decided to do an activity that perhaps showed he wasn't as injured as everyone thought. He shows aspects of stubborness and obstinance in the ensuing melee and goes into his shell mentally.

We have an oyakata who is supposed to be in control but is shown to be at the mercy of his star rikishi and his entourage. The oyakata is left ragged emotionally, and is being set upon from all sides for his lack of leadership and instruction.

We have another oyakata who takes the moulding of a young rikishi into a man to outlandish extremes resutling in bullying and abuse. His idea of tough instruction crosses the line into violence and assault, and he is revealed to have poor judgement, to possibly be a mean drunk, and now ultimately unsuitable for his position due to his actions.

And, back to where this thread started, we have a great yokozuna, later an oyakata and rijicho, who held personal beliefs and convictions that saw him embroiled in a police skirmish for protecting the leader of a religious group that he followed.

We admire rikishi and oykata for their talents and careers, and rightly so, but we must remember that they have private lives, thoughts, and beliefs, and their actions are shaped by these sometimes as much as (or moreso than) the influence sumo has on them.

[Jonosuke]

I am talking about making such a statement while not even bothering to check the dates of the tenures that he served in the Kyokai. Why has that got to do with Tokitsukaze beya having a prestige or not? What about the previous Rijicho who has accomplished as much as his shisho?

I don't want to get into a particular aspect of a group Futabayama joined briefly to be a cult or its leader, "goddess". It is like suggesting certain actors are less of actors because they belong to a certain so called religious organization. What is the basis of calling a particular religious group, a cult? As far as I know the group did not take anyone against their will or plant a poisonous gas in subway.

Belief and faith someone may have at one time or another has no bearing whatsoever to do with his achievements either as an active rikishi or oyakata. If you are talking about his whole life then it may be a point of interest but why you bring a religion into this?

If you want to talk about a certain religion as a cult or not, let's start a new thread.

[Asashosakari]

Since this thread is already on the slippery slope to Off-Topic, I can't help myself...

From Washuyama's Chisaiyama's link:

The former Grand Champion, who since accepting the worship of the sun goddess diety has assumed the name of Motohiro Futaba, furthermore, declared that the spirit of Lenin recently had entered into his being.

Now that's taking "Communist subversion" to a whole new level...

(Edited to acknowledge author's inability to read names...)

Edited October 10, 2007 by Asashosakari

[Kotonosato]

Pause to study the life of the great yokozuna before you make a trollish statement.

Clearly I've stepped on sacred ground.

I guess if I had first said that I know he was one of the greatest yokozuna of all time and that the wooden rooster story is THE single greatest sumo story that I've ever heard, then the question would seem less trollish. Having said that, it is your response that now seems trollish.

I was trying to provoke the kind of historical perspective that Sasanishiki adopted.

Despite the fact that he went around telling people that he was possessed by the spirit of Lenin, his reputation as perhaps the greatest rikishi of all time remains intact. And the Tokitsukaze name is still defended strongly, as your response seems to prove. I guess, in that sense, you answered my question.

The next question might be: Historically, will anyone care about the Asahoryu incident 30 years from now? Will he only be remembered for his incredible record as a yokozuna? Will the Asa Era be remembered as the next great age after Waka-Taka? Futabayama overcame some strange incidents. Will Asa?(Perhaps THIS should be another thread.)

[Jonosuke]

I may have been burned out a bit with all this Tokitsukaze story so if I came across too harsh on you, I apologized.

The reason for my response is that because you titled your thread with Tokitsukaze beya history while strictly focusing on a brief religious conversion of Futabayama. It simply has nothing to do with the heya or the rest of Futabayama's life. If you want to talk about it, fine, go ahead and start out a thread on his religious experience. I have no problem. By focusing strictly on it and reflecting wholly on the Tokitsukaze beya history is misleading and does not contribute to the subject.

It is like saying Muhammad Ali was less of boxer after he converted from Cassius Marcellus Clay Jr. or trying to talk about all Mongolian rikishi by saying one of their yokozuna was accused of faking his illness to skip a Jyungyo tour one time.

[Chisaiyama]

Jonosuke-san, by many of the dictionary definitions of "cult" the organization that Futabayama joined, apparently heart and soul, qualifies as a cult. As for the term goddess as you can see if you followed my link to the archived stories, that his how the lady referred to herself.

While the original title might have been slightly misleading, Kotonosato clearly was seeking information as regards that topic indeed asking if this incident occurred before he was oyakata and/or rijicho.

Even now as a people we tend to look askance at an organization, no matter how good it's intentions, if it has been founded by or greatly assisted by soneone who society believes to be or have been a "kook". And by the standards of 1947 you've got to believe that a lot of people seeing their recently retired Yokozuna of Yokozunas acting in such a manner, beating up policemen and claiming to channel the spirit of Lenin would have to include him in that "kook" category.

Somehow he overcame this and went on to become a venerable oyakata and rijicho until his death but it obviously took some time as he did not make Rijicho until 10 years after this incident.

Instead of ranting on us can you gives us some more of your usual sagacity as to how he did run his stable and what kind of deshi he turned out? Did he raise any Yokozuna or Ozeki during his tenure?

[Asashosakari]

Somehow he overcame this and went on to become a venerable oyakata and rijicho until his death but it obviously took some time as he did not make Rijicho until 10 years after this incident.

I don't know if that is all that good a way to look at it. Becoming rijicho is like becoming Pope...unless the previous one rocked the boat too much, you can only get there if a new one is needed due to death/retirement/etc. So it's not like Futabayama could have done anything to speed up his ascension to rijicho, no matter what he had done/had not done in the past.

Edited October 10, 2007 by Asashosakari

[Washuyama]

Trying to get this topic back to the original question...

I don't have the knowledge to comment on early Tokitsukaze, however during the mid-70's and early-80's, when ex-Yutakayama was oyakata, they were one of the stronger heya. Stronger in this case meaning number of sekitori. Without doing alot of research, they commonly had 5 or more sekitori during this period. Solid sekitori like Kurama, Yutakayama (current Minato,) Oshio, Taniarashi, Ogata/Amanoyama, Oyutaka, even the recent ex-Tokitsukaze, Futatsuryu. They didn't have the stranglehold on the sanyaku ranks like Futagoyama(Wakanohana II, Takanohana I), Hanakago (Wajima, Kaiketsu), Mihogoseki(Kitanoumi, Masuiyama II), Dewanoumi (Mienoumi, Washuyama), Takasago (Asashio, Takamiyama) and Tatsunami (Asashikuni, Kurohimiyama).

I really don't know what all of this means other than Tokitsukaze has been very good and building successful rikishi....

[Sasanishiki]

Another thought has sprung to mind. He was still have been a member of the Kyokai when this incident happened. Is there any record of what they thought about this incident?

Edited October 11, 2007 by Sasanishiki

[Kotonosato]

I may have been burned out a bit with all this Tokitsukaze story so if I came across too harsh on you, I apologized.

Thanks for the apology. Don't worry, no harm done. I think we're all a little upset about what's been going on this year. The Tokitaizan story is a lot for any of us to deal with.

It is like saying Muhammad Ali was less of boxer after he converted from Cassius Marcellus Clay Jr. or trying to talk about all Mongolian rikishi by saying one of their yokozuna was accused of faking his illness to skip a Jyungyo tour one time.

I know what you're trying to say about Ali, but I really had nothing about religion in mind. The story could very well have been about some kind of political affiliation: One of the party members gets arrested and Futabayama goes ape-shit trying to save his hero from the cops. The Lenin thing is even wackier still.

And I don't get the Mongolian argument at all.

Anyway, the question was: Did this incident matter to Futabayama's image or that of his stable?

The answer appears to be: Not at all. If Asashoryu is lucky, he too will be remembered for his record, and not for the crap he's pulled this year.

[wanchanyama]

Anyway, the question was: Did this incident matter to Futabayama's image or that of his stable?

The answer appears to be: Not at all. If Asashoryu is lucky, he too will be remembered for his record, and not for the crap he's pulled this year.

Think people were more concerned with other post war problems. Many people had done strange and unusual things during the war and afterwards. I'm sure at the time the incident was far from the most important going around. Unlike the current incident which has been in the papers for some time now.

Nippon Times, Wednesday 5th February 1947 (Page 4)

SPORTS REVIEW For 1947 Part II

The retirement of Futabayama, long the glamor boy of the sumo world, highlighted Japan's most honoured sport. However, sumo this year is facing a sad decline, largely due to the decreasing public interest and hardships maintaining a sumo stable.

Managers of the sumo behemoths say that with the prices of food being what they are it is most difficult to keep the Japanese wrestlers fed during the season and the off season.

Furthermore, the general public are more concerned with making a living than with watching the gargantuans of the ring cavort about the sanded ring.

So, Futabayama's retirement from the sumo ring meant also curtains on the "golden day" of Japanese sumo.

More articles on the incident http://www.juryo.net/newspaper/1940/1947.htm

[Hananotaka]

Context is king. I think Kotonosato was seeking context. Unfortunately I think the implication from the title and post was that there might not be much worth to the Tokitsukaze name, even without the current incident, because of Futabayama's actions.

So, some context. The incident happened in 1947. Futabayama was newly retired, his heya just starting out, Japan was newly defeated, still occupied by U.S. forces. The group Futabayama joined was nationalistic, known for flying the Japanese flag without permission from GHQ, and for Jiko claiming that the divinity the Emperor denied had transfered to her.

So you have a former rikishi trying to adjust to retired life and come to grips with Japan's defeat, and adjust to living under occupation. So he hooks up with this group that thumbs its nose at the occupation and has a charismatic leader. The police suspected the group of ignoring the food rationing, and made a surprise raid so that Jiko didn't escape on the overnight train. So here you have something that makes Futabayama feel better about himself, no matter how crazy the stuff they say, and now the police, who answer to GHQ, are trying to take her away. So he fought them.

Was it acceptable? No, although it wouldn't surprise me if some friends in the Kyokai were a bit sympathetic. But at any rate, Futabayama turned it around. Whether he continued to believe in Jiko or not, he didn't let it become an issue, raised many good rikishi, including one Yokozuna and three Ozeki, and was a great Rijicho.

There's a story that when he retired some thought he should get the Inazuchi myoseki, as that was the most fitting, but Futabayama himself didn't care what myoseki he got. He said, "If I get a bad one, I'll make it better." And that's what he did. He made a mistake, and then he worked hard to clear his myoseki of that stain. Think of it! He fought with police and was arrested! That's pretty bad as far as oyakata behavior goes -- he got the Tokitsukaze myoseki and immediately took it through the mud. And yet, until this recent incident Tokitsukaze was a proud myoseki of history and worth. So, as Joe says, let's look at his whole sumo life, and rather than judge it by it's early nadir, let's marvel at the whole.

Edited October 12, 2007 by Hananotaka