Breaking News - Police to Charge Tokitsukaze oyakata

[Jakusotsu]

This is the first good news in this sad affair. Edagawa appears to be a much more jolly fellow than the soon-to-be-gone Tokitsukaze.

Edited October 2, 2007 by Jakusotsu

[Hananotaka]

I agree with Jakusotsu. Aogiyama is from Hikone City in Shiga Prefecture, where I used to live. It's terrible that this is how he ends up becoming a shisho.

[Otokonoyama]

It's good to hear the Kyokai was pushed into action by the Ministry call for them to get off their collective duffs. Tokitsukaze next needs to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

[Kintamayama]

It has been decided to ask the Tokitsukaze beya anideshi to come and testify at the rijikai on the 5th, prior to deciding the punishment for Tokitsukaze Oyakata. "We need to hear as many witnesses as we can", explained Kitanoumi. "The rijikai will decide the punishment. I cannot say if it will be a dismissal or not because I don't want to be misunderstood. We will be hearing the various rijis' views and deciding.", added Kitanoumi Rijicho.

[aderechelsea]

suddenly EVERYONE is interested in Sumo ... :-(

That article isn't so bad at all. You can expect the international media to pick up on this case, and that one got all of its facts right for a change. (unlike the German article link posted earlier)

yeah yeah .... the article is good indeed but it is the fact that Sumo gets the wrong kind of international media attention that bothers me ...

[Asashosakari]

a successor has already been named-Edagawa Oyakata, former Maegashira Aogiyama.

No big surprise there. They weren't going to let a prominent stable like Tokitsukaze-beya just go out of existence. The most surreal side effect of this whole thing would be if it allowed decades-long kabu borrower Zaonishiki (affiliated to Tokitsukaze-beya, currently as Nishikijima) to grab a stable kabu in the process.

I wonder who's going to be the owner of Edagawa-kabu after this? It's not like they're just going to "give" the Tokitsukaze-kabu to ex-Aogiyama as a second one to own, I presume...

Edited October 2, 2007 by Asashosakari

[Jonosuke]

a successor has already been named-Edagawa Oyakata, former Maegashira Aogiyama.

No big surprise there. They weren't going to let a prominent stable like Tokitsukaze-beya just go out of existence.

That's what some die hards talking.

Personally I think they should fold the heya and they will.

As much as I hate to see the proud name of Tokitsukaze beya which started out as Futabayma Dojo die away, but they will need to because it's a matter of public perception.

If you are Toyonoshima or Tokitenku or even worse those who are ranked below, people will talk about you even though they don't know you at all but they suspect you may have been accessory to the murder just because you are associated with the heya. You don't want that and certainly no one wants it.

There is a rikishi at Tokitsukaze beya who was so upset with the shisho's stonewalling tactics right after the incident, he run away and already missed two basho. He has not been "retired" but he could come back if the circumstance changes. He loves sumo and he wants to come back but I doubt very much he wants to compete under Tokitsukaze name ever again.

Those rikishi who have not been a part of this, they should be given a fresh start, with a new heya and shikona. They deserve it.

[sekitori]

There is a rikishi at Tokitsukaze beya who was so upset with the shisho's stonewalling tactics right after the incident, he ran away and already missed two basho. He has not been "retired" but he could come back if the circumstance changes. He loves sumo and he wants to come back but I doubt very much he wants to compete under Tokitsukaze name ever again.

I don't know the rikishi's name is and whether or not he had a very promising career. Whatever someone's future potential may be, I think it's admirable for that person to leave something he loves so well based solely on principle. I have no idea how those at Tokitsukaze beya feel about what he did. I'm sure some would regard him as an outcast who left his "team" when it was in deep trouble. I don't. I believe he did something quite heroic knowing that it could affect his future. I also feel that he must have been extremely frightened when he ran away, considering what happened to the other rikishi who attempted to run away.

The world needs more people who will show their displeasure when they feel that a severe injustice has occurred. This young man is certainly one of those people. Jonosuke, if this rikishi returns to sumo in the future, please let us know who he is. I will be one of his biggest fans.

[Toonoryu]

There is a rikishi at Tokitsukaze beya who was so upset with the shisho's stonewalling tactics right after the incident, he ran away and already missed two basho. He has not been "retired" but he could come back if the circumstance changes. He loves sumo and he wants to come back but I doubt very much he wants to compete under Tokitsukaze name ever again.

Are we talking about Tokinoumi ?

[Doitsuyama]

I actually assumed from the news the heya name would change. I also thought the former Futatsuryu still owns the Tokitsukaze-kabu even after expulsion. He will lose rank, title and monthly income, but as a matter of property rights I think it's not that easy to just take away his share. He can be pressured into selling it fast like Wajima had been (which makes sense since qualified ownership is coupled with a big monthly salary until retirement age and this makes the kabu so expensive), but can he really be forced into that - I doubt it.

[Kintamayama]

There is a rikishi at Tokitsukaze beya who was so upset with the shisho's stonewalling tactics right after the incident, he run away and already missed two basho.

And I suspect he's the one (Tokinoumi) who admitted to using the bat, then his conscience kicked in, he went to the police, and ran away because he confessed and knew he's finished at the heya.

And yet again, I don't get it, just like I didn't get the rikishi who stuck around for three years even though he claims to have been heavily hazed. If this guy is disgusted, why hasn't he retired? Or does he need Tokitsukaze's signature to retire? Then I could understand it. But otherwise, WTF?

Edited October 2, 2007 by Kintamayama

[Jonosuke]

Since the guy is not talking to the press we don't know if he participated or not at all. He was one of half a dozen or so Sandanme rikishi there and he was known to be the one with conscience according to a heya source.

About the timing of running away or leaving, it is pretty much to the individual's experience and background. For instance those with Judo or sumo background are more used to rough handling and once they invested their time, they may stay longer. Most high school club rikishi from Meitoku and Saitama Sakae know sumo lifestyle and they probably can endure more and longer while those without may run away to a nearest relative's house after their first Butsukari geiko.

Even yokozuna, ozeki and other sekitori have told about their escape from their heya or at least they considered it numerous times. Some escaped once or twice. Some like Kaio were caught up by a heya supporter and persuaded to come back. Others have actually gone home but were told by their parents to try one more time. Some endure but others cannot after a while and make up their mind to try something else. That could be six months or six years.

Mitoizumi wrote he could not count how many times he and his brother wanted to leave (and left a brief period before they were forced to come back to the heya because of hunger) but they had no place to go back to. They could not go back to their mother as the reason they left to join Ozumo was to help their mother live more comfortable life rather than having two hungry mouths around. So they cried and they endured.

Every rikishi needs to have their oyakata's stamp of approval as unless the oyakata sends the retirement paper to the Kyokai office, it won't be final. Some banzuke-gai rikishi could have gone home six months before the oyakata finally gives up and file the paper.

Edited October 2, 2007 by Jonosuke

[Ikh Mongol Dagvadorj]

If you are Toyonoshima or Tokitenku or even worse those who are ranked below, people will talk about you even though they don't know you at all but they suspect you may have been accessory to the murder just because you are associated with the heya. You don't want that and certainly no one wants it.

Does Tokitenku take part of this case?

Poor guy it is bad luck. no good name. I guess he should retire,

[Kintamayama]

If you are Toyonoshima or Tokitenku or even worse those who are ranked below, people will talk about you even though they don't know you at all but they suspect you may have been accessory to the murder just because you are associated with the heya. You don't want that and certainly no one wants it.

Does Tokitenku take part of this case?

Poor guy it is bad luck. no good name. I guess he should retire,

No Sekitori was involved, it has been reported about 456 times. Joe is saying that just the fact that he belonged to this heya at this time may forever associate him with this crime.

Edited October 2, 2007 by Kintamayama

[Ikh Mongol Dagvadorj]

If you are Toyonoshima or Tokitenku or even worse those who are ranked below, people will talk about you even though they don't know you at all but they suspect you may have been accessory to the murder just because you are associated with the heya. You don't want that and certainly no one wants it.

Does Tokitenku take part of this case?

Poor guy it is bad luck. no good name. I guess he should retire,

No Sekitori was involved, it has been reported about 456 times. Joe is saying that just the fact that he belonged to this heya at this time may forever associate him with this crime.

yes. That is true. It will associate with his name forever whether he involved or not. That is the problem

[Jonosuke]

I also thought the former Futatsuryu still owns the Tokitsukaze-kabu even after expulsion. He will lose rank, title and monthly income, but as a matter of property rights I think it's not that easy to just take away his share.

A Kyokai share is like a company share. In the end the Kyokai has a right to it, even though an oyakata or his beneficiary can own it temporary.

The Kyokai can expel Tokitsukaze oyakata and so in essence he can no longer participate in Kyokai activity (owning a heya or vote or any other Kyokai event) but the share is a different story. It will stay with the Kyokai whatever happens to the present owner like Yamahibiki Moti mentioned.

I do imagine the Kyokai can buy it back and can take a custody of it so someone else can take over. As for the heya assets, that is the current oyakata's personal property (building and land if he owns it) so they will need to vacate the place (eventually if not immediately) even if another oyakata takes over the heya. That is the reason I personally believe it is difficult for Aogiyama to start up a new place (at least in Kyushu, they won't need a place in Tokyo but they will need it in December) so the quickest way is dissolution of the heya and dispersing the members to other heya.

Incidentally the Ministry of Education sent a new directive to the Kyokai not to dismiss Tokitsukaze oyakata too quickly before they complete theirl investigation. They were afraid the Kyokai would not get to the bottom of this affair and simply let him go without finding out the truth. The Ministry feels the Kyokai is appearing to be rather reluctant to investigate their own member's conduct.

[sekitori]

If this guy is disgusted, why hasn't he retired?

It sounds as he's disgusted with Tokitsukaze beya, not with sumo. According to Jonosuke's post, he doesn't want to leave sumo. In a situation such as this, would it be possible for him to transfer to another heya? Has this ever happened before?

[ilovesumo]

I also thought the former Futatsuryu still owns the Tokitsukaze-kabu even after expulsion. He will lose rank, title and monthly income, but as a matter of property rights I think it's not that easy to just take away his share.

A Kyokai share is like a company share. In the end the Kyokai has a right to it, even though an oyakata or his beneficiary can own it temporary.

The Kyokai can expel Tokitsukaze oyakata and so in essence he can no longer participate in Kyokai activity (owning a heya or vote or any other Kyokai event) but the share is a different story. It will stay with the Kyokai whatever happens to the present owner like Yamahibiki Moti mentioned.

I do imagine the Kyokai can buy it back and can take a custody of it so someone else can take over. As for the heya assets, that is the current oyakata's personal property (building and land if he owns it) so they will need to vacate the place (eventually if not immediately) even if another oyakata takes over the heya. That is the reason I personally believe it is difficult for Aogiyama to start up a new place (at least in Kyushu, they won't need a place in Tokyo but they will need it in December) so the quickest way is dissolution of the heya and dispersing the members to other heya.

Incidentally the Ministry of Education sent a new directive to the Kyokai not to dismiss Tokitsukaze oyakata too quickly before they complete theirl investigation. They were afraid the Kyokai would not get to the bottom of this affair and simply let him go without finding out the truth. The Ministry feels the Kyokai is appearing to be rather reluctant to investigate their own member's conduct.

Hm...for the building, former little Tatsunami Beya is just around the corner.....might be a may be for a time.

[Jonosuke]

I don't remember when the Kyokai came up with their more strict condition of starting a new heya but they are now caught with their own doing.

If they follow a suggestion from certain Director to get former Aogiyama to start a new heya, Edagawa beya, then they are breaking their own rule as Aogiyama had only 36 Makunouch basho.

The rule states that an oyakata will need to have a minimum of 60 Makunouchi basho.

Incidentally a share's going rate these days is around 100,000,000 Yen to start.

Edited October 2, 2007 by Jonosuke

[Washuyama]

Another thing to think about... If Tokitsukaze beya is dissolved, whether renamed or not, what will become of the Tokitsukaze Ichimon name? Will it go away as well or will one of the other heya in the group assume "command" of the ichimon?

[Asashosakari]

Maybe I'll end up with a gigantic amount of egg on my face here, but I seriously can't believe that anyone expects the Tokitsukaze-beya name to lapse over all this. As obstinate as Tokitsukaze-oyakata seems right now, I do think the Kyokai has enough "pull" to more or less order a kabu switch between him and Edagawa. Sure, it'll be Tokitsukaze-beya in-name-only for a while if Aogiyama has to vacate the premises and set up shop elsewhere, but who cares, really?

And even if the Edagawa option wasn't available, they could still do the Wakamatsu/Takasago thing and merge a smaller stable into Tokitsukaze-beya and continue on with the more prestigious name.

[Kintamayama]

According to Jonosuke's post, he doesn't want to leave sumo. In a situation such as this, would it be possible for him to transfer to another heya? Has this ever happened before?

Never happened AFAIK, except when mergers or heya folding takes place.

[Kintamayama]

I don't remember when the Kyokai came up with their more strict condition of starting a new heya but they are now caught with their own doing.

If they follow a suggestion from certain Director to get former Aogiyama to start a new heya, Edagawa beya, then they are breaking their own rule as Aogiyama had only 36 Makunouch basho.

I am changing my view now. I'm pretty sure they'll stick with the Tokitsukaze name. I don't see it beng washed away easily. The Edagawa ploy has been brought up exactly for this: To bring on a successor as soon as possible.The successor will be qualified by legal means, like a name swap as Asashosakari suggested.

Edited October 2, 2007 by Kintamayama

[Otokonoyama]

Of course they need to finish their internal investigation (and perhaps wait for the police report) to properly vet Edagawa oyakata...

[Kintamayama]

The "switch machine" is in full motion now. A special meeting of the "Rotation Rijikai" will be held today, as switching miyoseki has a procedure. The decision will be made today to switch between Edagawa and Tokitsukaze, which can be implemented on the 5th at the earliest, the day of the projected tribunal where current Tokitsukaze's head will be served on a platter to the world. Which will actually leave Edagawa open after the banishment. Who will get it? Can any of the current geezers floundering in Makushita finally retire in peace??