Madness of king Asashoryu + psychiatry in Japan

[Kaikitsune Makoto]

It is very interesting that the doctors make such statements to media. I suppose this is all a plan then but if Shoryu is in that bad state, then getting the approval to publish the findings of patient-doctor relationship would be iffy. Doctor-patient relationship is a bit different in Japan with its super strange ways of not telling a dying person necessarily the severity of the situation even when the person asks BUT to reveal the info to next of kin without the permission from the patient. Maybe this has changed though.

In any case this surely doesn't give a very good impression of Shoryu's mental stability. A successful man who has had many things go his way for years gets a setback and falls apart like a fragile teenager. Incoherent, pacing around, eruptions of anger, bursting into tears, lack of sleep, lack of appetite, big mood changes etc. Sounds more like a patient with moderate to severe depression or a person in deep self pity shock. Especially that "yokozuna would watch his image on TV and burst into tears" comment. Is Shoryu really giving permission for the doctor to release all this info? Oh well some of the released stuff comes from the ever-smart oyakata who hasn't even met him but makes statements based on tsukebito's comments.

He has received his punishment. Why not just calm things now, let him go to Mongolia or not. Who cares really? He has his 2 basho absence for sure. If Kyokai needs to get "approval" for its reversal of the grounding decision and hence needs to make Shoryu look like he will soon hang himself in a strongly built tie or sheet or suffers a complete nervous melt down, then Kyokai surely is rather pathetic organization with a really bad saving face method. I wonder if all the comments about Shoryu's mental state are even true. Shoryu has no chance but to come back in Hatsu. Why this tremendous fuzz over his soups and agonies in his apartment now. He isn't Paris Hilton.

And WHY is he given soup so much?? Is it summer soup perhaps? No wonder he only eats 1/5 and gets even more depressed and cries...

[Sashohitowa]

I am just getting the impression that the "psychological drama"around Asashoryu, presented to us by his doctors, is somehow exaggerated. I am staring to think that all these "diseases" and "mental health in danger" proclamations are just (the only possible?) defensive move of him and his oyakata, aiming to make the Kyokai feel that they were too harsh, to calm the sentence down, to "loose the leash" and to obtain permission Asashoryu to go back to Mongolia. And to draw at least some sympathy from the public, of course.

Maybe I am wrong, and I will be ashame of myself, if after some time the (once great Yokozuna) turns into a psyched up neurotic, but, tell me, doesn't it just look like a play?

[ilovesumo]

He is for sure in a bad condition. But I also think there is a plan . The problem is that there has to be a big, understandable reason to send him back home- that's why they speak about his bad condition. I won't say it's a play. The reason just has to be made very very clear.

Otherwise it would look like a vacation trip they are asking for- and that can't be for a punished man. Medical reason- rest far away from the trouble- that's good.

I hope very much he can handle it, whatever happens...

[madorosumaru]

And I agree with Kaikitsune, it's amazing what intimate details seem to be leaking to the press right now. :-S

I believe there is method to Takasago's madness. We have to remember that there are two aspects to this whole situation. First, there is the matter of Asashoryu having done wrong and deserving punishment. Second, there is the matter of the severity of punishment. The first part is clear and few would argue that. But the second could be considered controversial.

The severity of the penalty came as a surprise to many people. Sure, the jungyo department was out for the kill but there was a kind of feeding frenzy out there among the public that grew by the day, fanned by the press. Typical was the film clip of the news program posted in this thread where the reporters piled on about the "faked injury" accusation. At the airport, the media was yelling "questions" to Ryu, "Did you enjoy the soccer?" "Was it worth it?" They interviewed average folks, who one after another would complain about how Ryu offended the Japanese public. These were the kind of people who, as some forum members have asserted, couldn't name three makuuchi rikishi.

Kitanoumi Rijicho favored a more lenient punishment. The overwhelming public outcry made that impossible.

Those pro and anti Asashoryu all believe he will not be able to tolerate four months' of kinshin. Something has to be done. Remember now that Takasago is the PR Director of the Kyokai. He is no dummy about public sentiments and how to manipulate them. Already there are talks that the punishment was too severe. Kyokai people are now saying it is difficult to draw the line on what he can or cannot do under kinshin.

Kyokai wanted to punish the yokozuna for his accummulated past indiscretions. They did not intend to humiliate him to this degree. And as many have brought up, forcing the yokozuna to retire would be cutting off the nose to spite the face. On the day of the announcement, a poll indicated that over 90% felt the punishment was fair or even lax. The numbers did not change the next day. A few minutes ago, I checked again and "Too severe" has gone up from 7% to 10% and "No punishment needed" is up from 4% to 5%. Not very much but these "intimate details" have only been out less than a day.

I believe Takasago knows what he is doing. If the public opinion changes, the kinshin part of the penalty may be lessened either in length or in activities that are proscribed. The reduction in pay and the suspension will stand but that can be tolerated. It's the four-months "grounding" that Takasago is worried about.

Whether the yokozuna is indeed that seriously ill or not, what Takasago is trying to do is to lighten the kinshin penalty by either getting permission for Ryu to return to Mongolia or to "lengthen the leash." To do that, he does not only have to convince the Kyokai but to sway the public opinion, which was greatly responsible for the severity of the punishment in the first place.

First, the primary doctor releases the information that the yokozuna is emotionally unstable. He says that he is no expert but he feels strongly that Ryu should be allowed to go home to Mongolia. He tells the press that he would recommend that to Takasago and the Kyokai. That's step one. Kitanoumi, of course, responds by saying that he and the Kyokai would value the doctor's suggestion. Meanwhile, Oshima and other hardliners are saying, "No way, Jose" for all the predictable reasons. But, even Uchidate, who is no friend of Asashoryu, is on record as saying, "The YDC would not want to see any harm come to the yokozuna." Takasago, in his cunning way, tells the doctor (and the press) that it would be premature to let Ryu go home. Why the punishment was meted less than a week ago and the yokozuna should at least meet the press and show his remorse. A very proper move to show that he is eminently reasonable and appropriately, though belatedly, strict with his deshi.

He then suggests that they consult a specialist in mental disorders and Dr. Honda, a renowned Roppongi psychiatrist, is called in. The good doctor is even more emphatic in his opinion--the yokozuna is on the brink of depression that could happen in two or three days if nothing is done. If treatment is prompt, recovery could be only several weeks. If not, it could take many months. Now, a sense of urgency is brought in by someone with the proper credentials.

The opposition is not going to bend over quietly. Already contradicting opinions from other shrinks are being released in the media. The hardliners are still demanding that the yokozuna pay in full for his indiscretions. Takasago is taking a big risk. But he knows that he has no other choice. Asashoryu will never survive four months of what Kinta calls the "Triple H." Both sides know that.

[Kaioshoryu]

The longer this whole saga goes on it looks more and more like Asa will intai if he is not permitted to go back to Mongolia for at least part of his triple H. Like the wise man madorosumaru said, he will not last 4 months of triple H.

[Kotonosato]

Either way I don't see how Asashoryu can come back now with any kind of dignity. He is either a mental weakling who falls apart at the first real hurdle or someone completely self centred whose only concern is his own comfort.

I wouldn't call it the first hurdle, after all he's been handling the pressure on and off the dohyo for years now, always under the magnifying glass. But you're right, does anyone related to sumo really want the world to think you can actually be a yokozuna with a "weak" mental state. Many fans regard a yokozuna as the ultimate embodiment of shin-gi-tai. Can you really win 20+ yusho with only 2 out of 3?

[Guest Mulan]

he will not last 4 months of triple H.

It's absolutely shocking that someone who is famous for mental toughness could fall apart over something as trivial as a 4 month suspension.

When I think about the rikishi that have mounted the dohyo and got on with things though the deaths of children and parents, Asashoryu just falls so much in my opinion. I mean there are people in the world with real problems for fecks sake. If Takasago was any proper kind of oyakata he would kick him off that couch and into the keikoba where he should be fulfilling his responsibilities instead of moping around like a pissed-off teenager that has been grounded.

And I know what I talking about here. I worked years as a counsellor in some of the worlds top centres and I find all this talk about someone being on the verge of depression complete bollocks. Depression is genetic and can be triggered by a numer of factors, but you can't say "oh it's going to happen within a week".

The other possibility...that this is all a ruse and his condition is being exaggerated to elicit sympathy so he can go back to Mongolia is even more disgusting.

Either way I don't see how Asashoryu can come back now with any kind of dignity. He is either a mental weakling who falls apart at the first real hurdle or someone completely self centred whose only concern is his own comfort.

This suspension was a golden opportunity to rehabilitate himself in the eyes of the Japanese public and to prove his was someone of dignity worthy of the title of yokozuna.

I've always liked him and given him the benefit of the doubt because he genuinely seemed like a nice guy who was just a bit misguided.

But I just can't support someone who acts like this when the chips are down.

I really don't know how I would feel seeing him on the dohyo again. It's time to retire in my opinion.

Not everybody has a samurai spirit. Besides don

[Kaikitsune Makoto]

There are many great athletes who have been very strong on their "dohyos" but unable to deal the challenges well outside their own area of expertise. Tyson was one major champion in boxing, worked like madman, had the hunger equal that of Shoryu, was fearless and great champion and what came out of him when he faced the world outside boxing..same with many other athletes and other cream of cream. There are some good Finnish examples of falling from idealized super athlete whose dedication to his sports was unmatched but who has since then become a total weakling and worthless father of his family and mainly drinks and drinks and feels sorry for himself.

Shoryu's world is sumo and in that he is at his element. I always thought and still think it is good for the world to have him in sumo, with attitude and personality like his, he might be quite a dangerous member of society otherwise. I wonder though what would have come of Taikai if he didn't join sumo hehe..

It is completely ridiculous to constantly bring up the conspiracy theories as the relevant part is how amazingly weak and pathetic Shoryu is in dealing with the situation where he is no longer in control and he can't have things his way. I truly hope he stays in sumo and does his thing on the dohyo. That is what he does best. Sumo can handle Shoryu's tantrums as long as he brings his competitive self on the dohyo. Hopefully Shoryu can handle some disciplinary action, no matter how unjust he may think that is.

[Jakusotsu]

Kitanoumi is the one the most conservative minds hates Asa because 24 times is his personal record.

fixed

[Kaikitsune Makoto]

Not everybody has a samurai spirit. Besides don

[Jakusotsu]

Can't really put my finger on it, but I got the impression that Kitanoumi Rijicho would have preferred the water staying icy cool on this occasion. Negative headlines are never good for Ozumo. No repercussions at all and two competing yokozuna for the rest of the year would have suited him better I guess, but once it became a public outcry, the hammer was to fall. Accusing him of scheming against Asa's 22th yusho is simply paranoid.

[Kotonosato]

Kitanoumi has spoken quite highly of Shoryu on many occasions though and you make it sound like Kitanoumi knew that Shoryu will crumble like a wimp under disciplinary action and retires and leaves sumo?

Did I miss the part where his illness was proven to be a fake?

If he is truly on the verge of real mental illness, calling him weak or wimpy is way out of line. I know we have very, very high expectations about a yokozuna, especially an ironman like Shoryu. But a little bedside manner might be called for right now.

If in the end, this is proven to be some kind of "publicity stunt", let's nail the guy.

[slt]

I don't quite understand why Takasago Oyakata & Co. are washing all their laundry in public this way. I mean, trying to make the Kyokai loosen the chain a little is understandable, but making Asashoryu, the Yokozuna who has been so dominant in the last few years, the incarnation of sumo's highest rank, appear like a fragile wounded puppy all over the place seems really bizarre.

The idea that Asa is really breaking down as he is (supposedly) doing right now is very odd to me, and I have trouble believing that it's genuine. If he had gotten stung so strongly in his pride, I think he would've stood up and sent everyone to hell, returning to Mongolia to do something there. If, on the other hand, he means to continue on with his sumo, his credibility is suffering to no end these days, and I find it staggering that these reports keep being fed to the media. The little I know about Japanese culture also cries out against all this public display of personal emotions, let alone for a Yokozuna...

Basically, a bunch of things are incomprehensible - 1) why are all these "reports" made public in the first place ? 2) Why, strictly speaking, a few days after the initial shock, should Asa still be so shocked ? I mean, sure, rikishi are human, but the amount of physical and mental effort that they endure throughout their career makes me think a certain mental strength is required, and Asa wasn't simply handed the Yokozuna spot for his good looks. 3) Why isn't the Kyokai reacting ? I don't mean they should suspend their sanction or anything like that, but don't they care about the image this whole story is casting on sumo ? Don't they care that a Yokozuna is being portrayed in the media as a depressive slob who's simply sitting around his room ?

[Coo-cook]

he will not last 4 months of triple H.

It's absolutely shocking that someone who is famous for mental toughness could fall apart over something as trivial as a 4 month suspension.

When I think about the rikishi that have mounted the dohyo and got on with things though the deaths of children and parents, Asashoryu just falls so much in my opinion. I mean there are people in the world with real problems for fecks sake. If Takasago was any proper kind of oyakata he would kick him off that couch and into the keikoba where he should be fulfilling his responsibilities instead of moping around like a pissed-off teenager that has been grounded.

And I know what I talking about here. I worked years as a counsellor in some of the worlds top centres and I find all this talk about someone being on the verge of depression complete bollocks. Depression is genetic and can be triggered by a numer of factors, but you can't say "oh it's going to happen within a week".

The other possibility...that this is all a ruse and his condition is being exaggerated to elicit sympathy so he can go back to Mongolia is even more disgusting.

Either way I don't see how Asashoryu can come back now with any kind of dignity. He is either a mental weakling who falls apart at the first real hurdle or someone completely self centred whose only concern is his own comfort.

This suspension was a golden opportunity to rehabilitate himself in the eyes of the Japanese public and to prove his was someone of dignity worthy of the title of yokozuna.

I've always liked him and given him the benefit of the doubt because he genuinely seemed like a nice guy who was just a bit misguided.

But I just can't support someone who acts like this when the chips are down.

I really don't know how I would feel seeing him on the dohyo again. It's time to retire in my opinion.

Not everybody has a samurai spirit. Besides don

[madorosumaru]

Clinical depression (also called major depressive disorder, or unipolar depression when compared to bipolar disorder) is a state of intense sadness, melancholia or despair that has advanced to the point of being disruptive to an individual's social functioning and/or activities of daily living.

Although a low mood or state of dejection that does not affect functioning is often colloquially referred to as depression, clinical depression is a clinical diagnosis and may be different from the everyday meaning of "being depressed." Many people identify the feeling of being clinically depressed as "feeling sad for no reason", or "having no motivation to do anything." A person suffering from depression may feel tired, sad, irritable, lazy, unmotivated, and apathetic. Clinical depression is generally acknowledged to be more serious than normal depressed feelings. It often leads to constant negative thinking and sometimes substance abuse. Extreme depression can culminate in its sufferers attempting or committing suicide.

As reported numerous times, Asashoryu does not have "full-blown" depression at this point. Dr. Honda diagnozed that the yokozuna has a condition that could lead to depression if not treated immediately. The psychiatrist recommended by the Kyokai concurred with that assessment and said Ryu should return to Mongolia for treatment. The condition the doctors described is called 抑うつ状態 (pre-depression).

[Kotonosato]

As reported numerous times, Asashoryu does not have "full-blown" depression at this point. Dr. Honda diagnozed that the yokozuna has a condition that could lead to depression if not treated immediately. The psychiatrist recommended by the Kyokai concurred with that assessment and said Ryu should return to Mongolia for treatment. The condition the doctors described is called 抑うつ状態 (pre-depression).

I've never heard of pre-depression before. Is this really in the diagnostic and statistical manual? Sounds more like mild depression with the possibility of it getting worse (or better). I'm guessing that any medical treatment the doctor suggests will not differ from those for regular depressive disorders.

[Kaikitsune Makoto]

As reported numerous times, Asashoryu does not have "full-blown" depression at this point. Dr. Honda diagnozed that the yokozuna has a condition that could lead to depression if not treated immediately. The psychiatrist recommended by the Kyokai concurred with that assessment and said Ryu should return to Mongolia for treatment. The condition the doctors described is called 抑うつ状態 (pre-depression).

I've never heard of pre-depression before. Is this really in the diagnostic and statistical manual? Sounds more like mild depression with the possibility of it getting worse (or better). I'm guessing that any medical treatment the doctor suggests will not differ from those for regular depressive disorders.

The whole concept of depression requires at least 3 weeks of time during which the diagnostic criteria must be met. It is not a depression if someone loses a child in car accident, it is a shock reaction. Sure it can lead into bad depression. That shock is what Asashoryu is suffering from. "Pre-depression" I have never ever heard or read about. Probably some term they use with media. Asashoryu suffered a bad injury to his ego, he is now in shock due to that.

The treatment for depression is usually long and it takes time to kick in. SSRI and SNRI take time to start any affect, even 6 weeks. Depression has a serotonine problem which drugs aim to deal with. The acute treatment for shock reaction can be tranqulizers like diazepam or oxatsepame so in that sense it is no wonder he takes some of those to feel less edgy and stressed. But he is brought a lot of soup which must be the best treatment of all, if he only ate it!

[madorosumaru]

病的なうつ状態で、うつ病まではひどくない、でも治療を受けた方がいい、というときによく使われる診断名が「抑うつ」です

At least, the Japanese differentiate between "depression" うつ病 and "pre-depression" 抑うつ.

The description above is: "It is used for a condition that has the same symptoms as depression, but not as serious. However, it would be best for the patient to receive treatment."

[Randomitsuki]

The treatment for depression is usually long and it takes time to kick in. SSRI and SNRI take time to start any affect, even 6 weeks. Depression has a serotonine problem which drugs aim to deal with. The acute treatment for shock reaction can be tranqulizers like diazepam or oxatsepame so in that sense it is no wonder he takes some of those to feel less edgy and stressed. But he is brought a lot of soup which must be the best treatment of all, if he only ate it!

Behavioral therapy can be as effective as medication, often works faster, and provides a person with strategies that can be used in later occurrences of depression. After all, this might not have been the last time Asashoryu feels hassled by the Kyokai...

[Kotonosato]

Behavioral therapy can be as effective as medication, often works faster, and provides a person with strategies that can be used in later occurrences of depression. After all, this might not have been the last time Asashoryu feels hassled by the Kyokai...

This is kind of a generalization, but it appears to me that Japanese society does not believe in "things psychological" they way that Western countries, particularly European countries do. It seems to be more of a "work harder and don't think about your problems" kind of society. On the other hand, they LOVE prescription drugs.

[Sashohitowa]

...About the pre-depression:

I think recently I experience pre-depression syndromes every day during honbasho - when it comes time for Kotooshu's bout.

When it is over, and when he loses due to badly executed henka move versus a maegashira opponent - it converts into a depression..

(On the banzuke...)

[Kaikitsune Makoto]

This is really getting curious. Takasago Oyakata held a press conference and said, "The doctor from yesterday diagnozed Asashoryu's condition not to be depression but acute stress disorder. He said it was necessary to settle the yokozuna down and observe him for a couple of days." The doctor had told the oyakata that "it would be best if [Ryu] was hospitalized, but that wouldn't be such an easy thing to do."

The strange thing about this is that the nonsense abouit pre-depression after few days of some shock. Only now the most natural diagnosis of "acute stress disorder". I have written that diagnosis on many sick leave certificates. Reasons like death of a child, bad accident or near miss of some loved one, sudden break-up with spouse, 15-year old son being arrested for serious assault etc. No yokozuna sightings yet. Often people are visibly shaking and burst out crying or have tremendously difficult time to not cry at the reception. Usual treatment is sick leave and making sure the person has support network so there is someone to talk to and to just be there during the worst times. Often also small dose of bentsodiatsepine or some sleep drugs can be prescribed but only as emergency aid so that no addiction sneaks in. Very rare to have any normal person hospitalized due to acute stress reaction. Never heard of such nor read. Asashoryu should have plenty of support from tsukeibito, sushi bringing polticians, whatever people come at his house to bring that SOUP. But as has been revealed before Japan is silly about hospitalizing people for nothing, just because of the insurances and whatever.

[Otokonoyama]

Behavioral therapy can be as effective as medication, often works faster, and provides a person with strategies that can be used in later occurrences of depression. After all, this might not have been the last time Asashoryu feels hassled by the Kyokai...

This is kind of a generalization, but it appears to me that Japanese society does not believe in "things psychological" they way that Western countries, particularly European countries do. It seems to be more of a "work harder and don't think about your problems" kind of society. On the other hand, they LOVE prescription drugs.

Kotonosato,

I've noted the same thing before. Psychologists are generally viewed as witch doctors. Psychiatrists fare somewhat better, as they can prescribe magic pills that will absolve one of any personal responsibility for what happens in life and get them back to work asap.

[Kaikitsune Makoto]

Behavioral therapy can be as effective as medication, often works faster, and provides a person with strategies that can be used in later occurrences of depression. After all, this might not have been the last time Asashoryu feels hassled by the Kyokai...

This is kind of a generalization, but it appears to me that Japanese society does not believe in "things psychological" they way that Western countries, particularly European countries do. It seems to be more of a "work harder and don't think about your problems" kind of society. On the other hand, they LOVE prescription drugs.

Kotonosato,

I've noted the same thing before. Psychologists are generally viewed as witch doctors. Psychiatrists fare somewhat better, as they can prescribe magic pills that will absolve one of any personal responsibility for what happens in life and get them back to work asap.

It varies a lot in western countries too and attitudes can be very harsh towards any "shrink" or happy pills. The main depression drugs serotonine system enhancers don't do anything artificial but just restore the balance that gets out of balance in depression and many other mental states like compulsive disorder. Whoever came up with the word "happy pills" or whatever the ENglish term is should be sent to Mars. Psychiatrists are experts in the many drug therapies and combinations of those but they also do psychologist work and give therapies. If you are Japanese conservative man (or Finnish..) who doesn't want to talk much about his own problems, then therapies don't really do good I suppose. In US it seems that all sorts of therapies are put in quite easily, especially if you are a public figure and say rude things to homosexuals or dare to use a racist term in anger. Solution: Therapy!

Depressed person would never say to another depressed person idiotic statements like "You should just get some fresh air and get hold of yourself!" or "Just try to cheer up!" as that is like saying to a Mongolian asthma patient: "You should just try harder with the breathing! Stop fussing around with it and breathe normally"

[Kaikitsune Makoto]

Another Japanese paradox. Perhaps one of the best medical systems in the world for physical problems, but knowledge about and treatment of emotional / mental problems is still in the dark ages.

I know more about that area than any doctor I've met here. Many of them are so clueless that they just make names for conditions.

Witness princess Masako for the last few years to see how even a member of the imperial family is subject to this nonsense.

If I have understood correctly, Japanese medical system is highly specialized. You even have to know which hospital to go based on the symptom you have! In Finland when I work in local "hokensho" ie. health care center, all kinds of patients can come there. People in psychosis, heart attacks, strokes, abdominal pains, ankle fractures etc. It is then up to the doctor to either give treatment there or send the patient to hospitals where specialists work and are on-call. So in Japan it is probably so that most doctors don't know much about psychiatry as they never treat such patients. They specialize so early and there is hardly a specialist in general medicine? Finnish surgeons are quite helpless with psychiatrical patients too as they never treat them anymore but usually even future surgeons have worked in other fields early in the career and the mandatory hokensho time certainly exposes them to depression patients which are mostly treated there.

I am sure Japanese psychiatrists are top class and are also sad about the general view on their work in Japan. I am not sure about this polished white teeth psychiatrist on the pictures but maybe he is a good devoted psychiatrist too and not some tarento psychiatrist who doesn't devote to patient-work.