Has sumo changed?

[Washuyama]

I'm just returning to watching sumo after a LOONG break (When I moved from Japan, Jimmy Carter was Pres.) so forgive me if my observations are a little off as I've only seen the first 5 days Nagoya. My point is this... There seems to be a serious lack of sumo as I remember it. In the 70's the majority of bouts, rikishi went for the mawashi right from the tachi-ai. Today it seems like 90% of the matches include a tsuparri or nodo-wa exhibition followed by a hatakikomi attempt. I really would like to see a technician like Yokozuna Wajima, Ozekis Asahikuni and Takanohana I. Although from what I've seen both Yokozuna now seem quite deserving of the title.

[Hananotaka]

In a word, yes. The 70s were marked by a very weak, high tachiai. Rikishi would basically fake to the ground and go for the belt. It was the ideal period for mawashi technicians. Through the 80s and 90s more and more emphasis was put on getting the rikishi down into a proper crouch and actually touching their hands on the ground. This led to more tsuki-oshi rikishi, and with that heavier rikishi. The heavier rikishi are really hard to completely push-thrust out, but thanks to their heavier weight they are more susceptible to a well-timed pull down. The emphasis on getting two hands full on the ground in the late 90s and early 2000s essentially created an epidemic of henka, hataki-komi's, and tsuki-otoshi's, so these days they are taking a more lax stance, and you see a lot of rikishi's getting away with just one hand on the ground. This was the common tachiai of the late 80s/early 90s, when sumo was booming, so hopefully it'll provide the right mix of belt technique and power tsuki-oshi sumo!

[Shomishuu]

I still prefer the nearly-standing pre-1984 tachiai to the current one, mainly because the henka back then - although just as numerous - were much less blatant because the rikishi could see each other better throughout. The two-hands-down rule has been there all the time. It wasn't enforced then, just as it's not enforced now. The tachiai changed because of an announcement that it would be enforced. To each his own, though.

[Kotonosato]

In a word, yes. The 70s were marked by a very weak, high tachiai. Rikishi would basically fake to the ground and go for the belt. It was the ideal period for mawashi technicians. Through the 80s and 90s more and more emphasis was put on getting the rikishi down into a proper crouch and actually touching their hands on the ground. This led to more tsuki-oshi rikishi, and with that heavier rikishi. The heavier rikishi are really hard to completely push-thrust out, but thanks to their heavier weight they are more susceptible to a well-timed pull down. The emphasis on getting two hands full on the ground in the late 90s and early 2000s essentially created an epidemic of henka, hataki-komi's, and tsuki-otoshi's, so these days they are taking a more lax stance, and you see a lot of rikishi's getting away with just one hand on the ground. This was the common tachiai of the late 80s/early 90s, when sumo was booming, so hopefully it'll provide the right mix of belt technique and power tsuki-oshi sumo!

Thanks for this post, Hananotaka. I think it's one of the best analyses of the connections between tachiai rules and the technique/state of the art of sumo I've read. (Sign of approval...)

I'd like to hear others' opinions too, of course.

[Hananotaka]

Just a question - why was this thread merged? While my response to Washuyama referred to differences in tachiai, surely that is not the only difference people may have noticed between sumo in the 70s and today. Doesn't merging the threads essentially kill Washuyama's topic, which was not concerned wholly with tachiai?

[Kotonosato]

Just a question - why was this thread merged? While my response to Washuyama referred to differences in tachiai, surely that is not the only difference people may have noticed between sumo in the 70s and today. Doesn't merging the threads essentially kill Washuyama's topic, which was not concerned wholly with tachiai?

That's a good point. I don't actually know how the moderation works, but maybe in this case, it would have been better to place a "See also Has sumo changed?" message, rather than merging the two threads.

[Otokonoyama]

Just a question - why was this thread merged? While my response to Washuyama referred to differences in tachiai, surely that is not the only difference people may have noticed between sumo in the 70s and today. Doesn't merging the threads essentially kill Washuyama's topic, which was not concerned wholly with tachiai?

That's a good point. I don't actually know how the moderation works, but maybe in this case, it would have been better to place a "See also Has sumo changed?" message, rather than merging the two threads.

I felt the questions were very similar in spirit, even if the wording was not exactly the same. This was purely my own opinion, naturally not all agree. I tried to leave a link in the former "Has sumo changed?" topic to the merged topic, but it doesn't seem to have worked. I appreciate the feedback. If you'd like to discuss it more, please send your PMs my way. Thank you.

EDIT: after discussion via PM have reverted the topics to original form

Edited July 16, 2007 by Otokonoyama

[Joeblack]

I'm just returning to watching sumo after a LOONG break (When I moved from Japan, Jimmy Carter was Pres.) so forgive me if my observations are a little off as I've only seen the first 5 days Nagoya. My point is this... There seems to be a serious lack of sumo as I remember it. In the 70's the majority of bouts, rikishi went for the mawashi right from the tachi-ai. Today it seems like 90% of the matches include a tsuparri or nodo-wa exhibition followed by a hatakikomi attempt. I really would like to see a technician like Yokozuna Wajima, Ozekis Asahikuni and Takanohana I. Although from what I've seen both Yokozuna now seem quite deserving of the title.

I know it's comparing apple with orange, but do you think sumo is weak or strong in this era in comparison to the 70'?

[Asojima]

I know it's comparing apple with orange, but do you think sumo is weak or strong in this era in comparison to the 70'?

Completely different styles of sumo, but in my opinion, much weaker.

[Washuyama]

I know it's comparing apple with orange, but do you think sumo is weak or strong in this era in comparison to the 70'?

Completely different styles of sumo, but in my opinion, much weaker.

I agree it is different, but I'm not sure if it's weaker. The rikishi today are much bigger than the 70's where Takamiyama was by far the biggest at 6'3" and 400 lbs (190.5 cm / 181kg). Today Jesse would look like he needs to gain weight to compete. They had henka and hatakikomi in the 70's but I don't remember it being as common. Tsuparri seemed only to appear occasionally (with the exception of Kirinji and Fujizakura... There's a bout between these two on YouTube that I found but can't seem to relocate). I can name numerous rikishi of the 70s who were, in my opinion, technique artists. Yokozuna Wajima, Ozekis Takanohana & Asahikuni, Washuyama, Chiyonofuji, Kaiketsu just to name a few. While today (almost literally today, because I have only seen one basho), I see Asashoryu, Hakuho and only a couple others. I would like to see Asashoryu v. Kitanoumi, best of seven, though. ( I went with 7 to give Asa a chance... j/k)

Edited July 22, 2007 by Washuyama

[Hananotaka]

I know it's comparing apple with orange, but do you think sumo is weak or strong in this era in comparison to the 70'?

I can't speak for the 70s, but I've seen a major decrease in sumo quality just from 2001 to today.

[Washuyama]

To kind of add on... Albeit there's bound to be alot of changes in 30 years, look at the yusho numbers for the yokozuna prior to Kitanoumi. Taiho (I am not worthy...) had 32, but other than that, you would see very few in double digits ( I know the number of basho per year helps). The better rikishi had 10 or 12... Kitanoumi had 24.. Imagine my surprise to see how Chiyonofuji turned out, as I remember seeing him as a high Juryo/Low Mageshira.

I do think Asashoryu had an easier time making it to 21 yusho than Kitanoumi did. Kita competed against 4 yokozuna (Wajima, Wakanohana II, Mienoumi, Chiyonofuji and Takanosato) in various states of their prime. Asashoryu came in at the tail end of Takanohana II, Wakanohana III and Musashimaru's career and has been without peer for what, 4 years. Don't get me wrong, Asashoryu will/may go down as the greatest or one of the greatest of all time, but I relly hope Hakuho gives him some stiff competition. And we don't know who the next "long-time" yokozuna will be.. Homasho? Tochiozan? Baruto?

I'm rambling.... Love to talk sumo...

[Shomishuu]

Except for the tachiai part - which I've spoken to in another thread - and the bigger size of today's rikishi, I don't think much has changed on the dohyo at all, even going back to the 1950s and before. On the old sumo videos from those times, what the rikishi are trying to do with each other is pretty much the same as today. Except for the colored mawashi of today, sumo still looks as ancient as it ever did - that's one thing I really love about it. Has anyone seen any old B&W sumo video that has been colorized? If it was, I'll bet it would look much the same as it does today. Of course, you'd have to ignore how the audience was dressed. (I am not worthy...)

[Asojima]

The 70's was a time of strong yotsu sumo. Tsuppari was simply a tactic used to acquire or prevent the acquisition of a favorable belt hold. It was not a major weapon. Pull downs and rabbit chases were almost non-existent. The emphasis was on agility, technique and leverage. Long, lock-up matches, which are frowned on today, were very common. The rikishi were more competitive. The yusho possibilities usually did not start to crystallize until day 12 or 13. This is the sumo that I became fascinated with, and it is what I consider to be "strong" sumo. Currently, sumo is essentially dominated by larger rikishi engaged in what I consider to be "bulldozer" sumo, which is the antithesis of 70's sumo. It is, therefore, "weak" sumo in my view. It is a matter of taste.

[Washuyama]

The 70's was a time of strong yotsu sumo. Tsuppari was simply a tactic used to acquire or prevent the acquisition of a favorable belt hold. It was not a major weapon. Pull downs and rabbit chases were almost non-existent. The emphasis was on agility, technique and leverage. Long, lock-up matches, which are frowned on today, were very common. The rikishi were more competitive. The yusho possibilities usually did not start to crystallize until day 12 or 13. This is the sumo that I became fascinated with, and it is what I consider to be "strong" sumo. Currently, sumo is essentially dominated by larger rikishi engaged in what I consider to be "bulldozer" sumo, which is the antithesis of 70's sumo. It is, therefore, "weak" sumo in my view. It is a matter of taste.

Now THAT I totally agree with... Man, I would love to see a good mizu-iri... Anyone know off-hand when the last one was??

[Asojima]

Man, I would love to see a good mizu-iri... Anyone know off-hand when the last one was??

I think we had one or two last year. We used to get one every day or two. (I am not worthy...)