Asashoryu Sends Toyonoshima to Hospital

[philafuji]

Mind Game:

I wonder if the Yokozuna beats the daylights out of some one while doing keiko, that the rikishi will remember that in the real basho, and the fear has grown.

In other words if he roughed me up this bad just doing keiko, how much worse it will be when it really counts.

[Bealzbob]

I think that is clearly his intention philafuji. I would say the younger or more inexperienced rikishi are as good as beaten before they even enter the dohyo against him during a basho.

[madorosumaru]

In the Takasago Diary, Ichinoya writes of the time he met the former Sadogatake Oyakata at a mutual friend's wedding. The former yokozuna Kotozakura lamented how laid-back keiko is nowadays. "In my days, we'd be pummeled until we thought we would die. We would literally hang on to dear life."

In an article in Sumo magazine about ten years ago, a well-known commentator also wrote about how easy-going keiko had become. He said Wakanohana I was so rough and merciless during keiko that it bordered on the "question of humanity."

Ichinoya says that's the way of keiko. Of course, since we are dealing with human beings, things can get out of hand. However, he feels the matter should be taken care of internally. Making a public spectacle of it doesn't do anyone any good.

At the Kyokai site, there is a quote by Dai-Yokozuna Futabayama to the effect of "Treat honbasho as if it is keiko-ba. Treat keiko-ba as if it is honbasho." The great champion tried to instill that into the minds of his deshi. "Be calm and cool even when you are on center stage" and "Maintain the intensity and ferocity of a crucial confrontation even during practice."

Ryu is an acknowledged admirer of former yokozuna Chiyonofuji and has patterned much of his style and mannerism after him. It is well-known that Chiyonofuji would "punish severely" any rikishi who had the audacity of defeating him during honbasho. He would unfailingly go after the poor fellow during degeiko prior to the next basho and whup him until there is no question who is superior.

Edited May 2, 2007 by madorosumaru

[BuBa]

When was the last time he was criticized for not doing keiko before honbasho? Last basho? Now, when he started actually doing it, it is too rough for some. Ridiculous.

[Chisaiyama]

I am overall a fan of Asa, though sometimes I think he gets just a little too much of himself. His good fortune and bad fortune, at the same time, is that as he came to Yokozuna there were no other Yokozuna class rikishi. The existing Ozeki were all just barely capable of holding their rank and little more. Had he had even just one other Yokozuna to share the responsibilities and to give honest competition he would have had a severe reality check and had a better attitude.

I do believe however as was pointed out in the excerpts from Takasago-oyakata's diary that his keiko performances are no worse and in some cases certainly way better than some other Yokozuna of the past. The difference is we now live in an era where communications are instantaneous around the globe. What once might have taken days just to travel around Nippon is now known instantly around the world. The Yokozuna is now living in a fish bowl instead of a feudal castle and has to start taking that into consideration.

I know that it would be a drastic action considering they only have the one Yokozuna, but considering that they have an almost certain replacement in Hakuho, if Asa's actions got too over the top might not Kitanoumi Rijicho and the other directors not consider ordering Asashoryu to retire for the betterment of Ozumo?

[Jonosuke]

I totally disagree with a view that this should be taken care internally. Granted accomplishment wise Asashoryu has been nothing but superb but often Asashoryu's personal behavior can only be profiled as malignant narcissism.

The major problem is and always has been the lack of supervision by Takasago oyakata, one of the Kyokai triumvirates who has never inclined to exhibit any control over Asashoryu. He has often no idea where the yokozuna is or what he is doing. One time he learned from Asasekiryu that Asashoryu was in Mongolia after an inquiry from a reporter.

Even after countless naggings from people like YDC's Makiko Uchidate, Asashoryu was never put on a short leash by the oyakata or Kyokai's chair Kitanoumi oyakata. With another nasty surprise confronting the Kyokai executives after Kyokutenho's indiscretion, the Kyokai will really need to be seen running a tighter ship.

The popularity of ozumo appears to be rebounding but with the yaocho accusation and this type of problems compound their efforts to get out of the long term funk. They need to be seen they are aggressively taking actions where needed.

Japanese media are currently directing more focus on sports organizations handling of their internal matters especially after Japan's pro baseball's Seibu Lion and high school baseball player problems.

[s0101]

A "Paint Job" wth lol? Anyhow here's a guy I'll bet Asashoryu couldn't beat up. (More than perhaps just beat up Asashoryu would get KTFO if you know what I mean... :-) )

sounds like "my dad can beat up your dad his hands tied behind"... (Sigh...) if you know what I mean ;-)

[philafuji]

Jonosuke,

First of all I want to compliment on your wonderful writing and your vast knowledge of sumo.

Now on to the question/s,

Did Asashoryu show these same actions prior to becoming Yokozuna?

If he hid them in order to be promoted that's one thing.

If he acted as he does now would the YDC

have promoted him any way? He is one of the greatest rikishi's I have ever seen.

Mike Tyson was one of the greatest boxers I have ever seen. He was striped of his championship after getting in to so much trouble and too many incidents to mention here.

Can the YDC demote Asashoryu due to his actions?

Thanks in advance for any replies.

[Fukurou]

Mike Tyson was one of the greatest boxers I have ever seen. He was striped of his championship after getting in to so much trouble and too many incidents to mention here.

Bad example - while Tyson has been involved with all sorts of incidents and legal troubles, he was never stripped of a title because of them. After he lost all (WBA, WBC, IBF) of his titles when Buster Douglas knocked him out in Tokyo in 1990, he did regain the WBA and WBC belts. He WAS stripped of the WBC belt, but that was for refusing to fight the #1 ranked challenger, Lennox Lewis (Tyson was busy making lots of money by fighting "tomato cans" at the time). Evander Holyfield, recently un-retired, beat him to take the WBA belt (the rematch to this fight was the one with the "ear bite"). Actually, looking at the record it doesn't appear that Tyson started getting into any bad trouble until after Douglas beat him.

Can the YDC demote Asashoryu due to his actions?

I'm obviously not Jonosuke, and I don't know that the YDC can do anything except comment. However, IIRC I think the NSK has kicked out (or forced out) a Yokozuna in the past. Can't remember which one, but I read about it on this forum.

*****

ETA - Here's the fellow - Futahaguro. He got forced out for supposedly shoving around the okami-san after a row with the oyakata. He didn't ever win a Makuuchi Yusho either, at any rank. (SF link to discussion thread)

Edited May 6, 2007 by Fukurou

[Kintamayama]

Can the YDC demote Asashoryu due to his actions?

A yokozuna can't be demoted. He can be forced to retire.

The YDC can do nothing about anything. They can only attempt to advise.

[philafuji]

Fukurou

Thank you for correcting me. You are correct.

Some states revoked his boxing license, but not his title.

[philafuji]

O.K.

If the YDC can't do anything about puting him out of sumo, who can?

I don't want to see this happen. I am just trying to

learn something here.

Thanks in advance for any replies.

Philafuji

[Fukurou]

O.K.

If the YDC can't do anything about puting him out of sumo, who can?

The Nihon Sumo Kyokai (aka "the NSK" aka "the sumo association" aka "the guys who run things") could force him out if they really wanted to. See the previous message referencing the situation with the 60th Yokozuna, Futahaguro.

Oddly enough, according to that bastion of true information, Wikipedia, after he left in 1987, he was allowed back in in 2003, as a coach at his old stable, Tatsunami-beya (where Mokonami trains). However, I don't see him mentioned on the English version of the Tatsunami page on the NSK website (nor on the listing for any other stable of the Tatsunami Group). His English page on the NSK site says he "left sumo upon retirement" where his Oyakata name should appear.

[philafuji]

Fukurou,

I checked out the sites or pages (I am internet stupid), regardless I found the information I wanted. Due to your help.

When I first started learning about sumo I remember reading about this.

I did not know what punishment he received nor did I know about him being forced out of by sumo, and by who.

I did not know he hadn't won a yusho in the top division either.

Thanks again for the help.

[Asashosakari]

Oddly enough, according to that bastion of true information, Wikipedia, after he left in 1987, he was allowed back in in 2003, as a coach at his old stable, Tatsunami-beya (where Mokonami trains). However, I don't see him mentioned on the English version of the Tatsunami page on the NSK website (nor on the listing for any other stable of the Tatsunami Group).

This is a coaching position (actually I'm not sure if he's still doing it) that is completely at the discretion of and paid for by the stable itself, much like a heya manager's job would be. It does not make Kitao a part of the Kyokai, therefore no listing on the official pages.

[Ryukaze]

A "Paint Job" wth lol? Anyhow here's a guy I'll bet Asashoryu couldn't beat up. (More than perhaps just beat up Asashoryu would get KTFO if you know what I mean... (In a state of confusion...) )

sounds like "my dad can beat up your dad his hands tied behind"... :-) if you know what I mean ;-)

Yeah except for one tiny little problem......that "guy" isn't exactly my dad ;-) .

[Kintamayama]

The chances of Toyonoshima entering Natsu basho are slim. "He's not in any shape to do serious keiko. I don't want him to overdo it..", said his shisho. "I don't think he'll have to skip the whole basho", he added, hinting he may enter after a few days. He did some butsugari today, but after two bouts his ankle became painful. "I thought I was much better.. Truthfully, I'm shocked", said a shocked Toyonoshima

[madorosumaru]

The Yomiuri reported that when Toyonoshima put on his honbasho mawashi and tried to do some serious sumo, he felt the kind of pain that he had never experienced before. "It was much more painful than I expected," said Toyo. "I was shocked." He got off the dohyo immediately.

It is unlikely that he will be ready for the start of the basho. At this point, he is thinking of entering the tournament in midstream.

Tokitsukaze Oyakata is still fuming. A very unreliable source claims he was raging about the heya, kicking in doors while calling the yokozuna "an [expletive-deleted] insurgent." (See http://www.foxnews.com/photoessay/0,4644,1528,00.html#2_0)

[Jonosuke]

The only thing and absolutely the only one thing Asashoryu must learn during these sessions is once his opponent letting go of him, he should do the same. We all know whether on the real hon-basho dohyo or training session, he rarely lets his opponent go easily. He will have to have one last shot even when his opponent is down or out. He must make efforts to stop doing so. Not only it's unnecessary, it goes against the spirit and way of sumo.

Other than that he should continue going as hard as he has been doing. After all that's how he got where he is today and why others are where they are. During old Futagoyama Beya's hey days, high ranking rikishis have done a lot more brutal and longer training sessions than Asashoryu has been doing. That's how Akinoshima, Takatoriki, Takanonami, Wakanohana and Takanohana got stronger.

It's really pathetic to see the head of Tokitsukaze Ichimon acting like a crybaby. This is the heya of Futabayama who found the Futabayama dojo which subsequently became Tokitsukaze beya. Worthy successors followed - yokozuna Kagamisato briefly and ozeki Yutakayama. Maybe a man who barely made it to komusubi and fell down to Makushita never able to return to Juryo before his retirement, Futatsuryu, is not a worthy successor to the great legacy. He may be a nice personable man but I am not sure if he deserves to be the heya's shisho.

Toyonoshima was his first genuine recruit to make it to sekitori (as other current heya sekitori were recruited by former ozeki Yutakayama, his predecessor) so he may probably have his emotions getting better of him. Or he is trying to show the heya's supporter club chairmen (one of them being Toyonoshima's father) that he's got what it takes to stand up to the great yokozuna. Or he is echoing other Asashoryu hating oyakata' sentiment. Whatever the case may be, he is not worthy of being the leader of sumo beya if he really stops any rikishi, let alone a yokozuna from coming to his heya to train with his recruits. He should be openly welcoming all comers. If he does not like what he sees, he is right there as a shisho, so just talk to the rikishi. They are his guests and the guests must conduct themselves according to the host's wish.

Shikoroyama oyakata always said he wanted to have Homasho train with the yokozuna. If the Ichimon bans the yokozuna then Homasho won't get a chance to train with Asashoryu, which is unfortunate. Asashoryu often says every time he gets on the dohyo, he is going up there as if going up there to risk his life. All rikishi need a mindset like Asashoryu, fully focused and prepared especially going against Asashoryu.

If all rikishi are not to go all out because of fear of injury, then we will see a lot less exciting bouts and Ozumo will lose more fans. Not many get injured being slapped down at tachiai henka. They might as well have all butsukari bouts.

Edited May 8, 2007 by Jonosuke

[Bealzbob]

Great post Jonosuke, I agree with every word :-)

[Jonosuke]

Did Asashoryu show these same actions prior to becoming Yokozuna?

If he hid them in order to be promoted that's one thing.

If he acted as he does now would the YDC

have promoted him any way? He is one of the greatest rikishi's I have ever seen.

Can the YDC demote Asashoryu due to his actions?

Sorry I missed your questions earlier.

I don't believe Asashoryu ever hid any training tactics, kind of difficult to do when he was trying to beat his opponent as hard as possible.

There is a difference when one becomes a yokozuna as other rikishi will show more respect and restrain because of his ranking so as not to offend any protocol and sumo manner. When two rikishi of similar ranks, for example Makushita, go against each other, they will go against each other without concerning themselves of the other's rank as they are going againt their equal.

But that is different when a yokozuna or ozeki decides to give a lower ranking rikishi a training session as they are doing him a favour. Higher ranking rikishi should always know this and understand this as in Ozumo the banzuke ranking dictates almost everything in their life.

This is almost like Senpai-Kohai (senior - junior) relationship in Japan. This is one of the most enduring relationships that is cultivated as early as in elementary school. Most schools have clubs and senior students can always order around their juniors. In Japanese language, there is a polite way of speaking to your elders like your parents and teachers. That's ingrained so deep in their culture that you grow up without learning it.

If you are speaking to your friends, you speak one way and if you are talking to another, your senior, you talk politely. They are not even conscious of it, it's automatic. But I find it always interesting to hear a 12 year old talking so politely to another so politely because the other happens to be more or less a year older than him or her. But a senoir should know their power comes with responsibiltiy and caring for their junior. Perhaps Asashoryu loses this in the heat of the battle from time to time.

A yokozuna's promotion is based on the two preceding bashos as ozeki. He needs to win the yusho or so-called "equivalent". YDC can delay it a bit in not a clear-cut case - for instance they did it for Takanohana vaguely citing his off-dohyo issue. But they really cannot stop any ozeki from becoming a yokozuna if he wins 15-0 two consecutive bashos.

As others said YDC cannot demote any yokozuna. No yokozuna can be demoted though Chiyonoyama once asked to be demoted. YDC can pressure a yokozuna to respond to them. But it's always the yokozuna and his shisho's to make the decision. Either he decides to retire or promises to do his best.

[philafuji]

Jonosuke,

Thank you. I understand more today than I did yesterday thanks to you.

Philafuji

[Fay]

Great postings Jonosuke, thanks for that. :-)

[s0101]

... Whatever the case may be, he is not worthy of being the leader of sumo beya if he really stops any rikishi, let alone a yokozuna from coming to his heya to train with his recruits. He should be openly welcoming all comers. If he does not like what he sees, he is right there as a shisho, so just talk to the rikishi. They are his guests and the guests must conduct themselves according to the host's wish.

Shikoroyama oyakata always said he wanted to have Homasho train with the yokozuna. If the Ichimon bans the yokozuna then Homasho won't get a chance to train with Asashoryu, which is unfortunate...

I got the impression that higher ranking rikishis visit lower ranking rikishis' heya to train them or practice with, not vise versa.

Can lower ranking rikishis visit the yokozuna's heya to practice with him? If yes, who gives the green light?

[Kintamayama]

Takasago Oyakata has officially apologized to Tokitsukaze Oyakata for this incident today. "No hard feelings now", said Tokitsukaze. "Takasago Oyakata phoned me on the 7th and said it was inexcusable that all this trouble was caused. I asked him to keep an eye on things from now on.."said Tokitsukaze Oyakata. Today, Toyonoshima lent his chest to Makushita rikishi, actually doing sumo for the first time since his injury.. "I figure the odds be fifty-fifty", he said of his participation in the coming Basho.