Asashoryu's training

[paolo]

I have been reading a lot of comments about the fact that Asashoryu does not train enough and so on. Just to understand: I presume that training, in general terms, takes place in the six/seven weeks between the bashos. Can somebody describe what is the "normal" training of a rikishi, in particular an Ozeki's one, and what Asashoryu does or does not perform ? I mean for instance: in the first week the rikishi normally rests, during the second he resumes training, and so on... He trains each day in the morning from 4 a.m. to 12 a.m , he does not train on saturdays/sundays and so on.. While naughty Asashoryu does not perform any of these activities ... Thanks !

[Kintamayama]

I have been reading a lot of comments about the fact that Asashoryu does not train enough and so on. Just to understand: I presume that training, in general terms, takes place in the six/seven weeks between the bashos. Can somebody describe what is the "normal" training of a rikishi, in particular an Ozeki's one, and what Asashoryu does or does not perform ? I mean for instance: in the first week the rikishi normally rests, during the second he resumes training, and so on... He trains each day in the morning from 4 a.m. to 12 a.m , he does not train on saturdays/sundays and so on.. While naughty Asashoryu does not perform any of these activities ... Thanks !

Well, every guy I guess has his own training regimen, but when you do only 2 days of training during the whole period, and you are the Yokozuna, you are bound do get some criticism from your elders, as this is not seen as "setting an example". Then, you go and win the yusho walking backwards - you must have had some "outside" help.

Especially if the whole routine repeats itself here and there..

[Otokonoyama]

He trains each day in the morning from 4 a.m. to 12 a.m

Don't suppose he keeps working out quite that late, either. 20 hours-a-day is more than even the most extreme do. Kimura of judo fame was said to train something like 9 hours a day. That was considered extreme.

[paolo]

Just to insist: 4 hours a day is an amount of time that is seen in very many professional sports,

so it seems reasonable to me. I can understand that sometimes they take a day off and do not train. I can also understand that some of them may work more and some may work less, due to differences in their complexion, illnesses and so on. What I cannot believe is that Asashoryu trains

only two days in six/seven weeks and wins a basho all the same. There is no professional sport anywhere at any time where a sportsman can keep his technical ability and his physical form (speed, strength, balance ... ) without training, expecially considering how much they seem to eat !

Can somebody clarify better the point ? Thanks

[Takemi]

This 4 hours a day keiko is a bit missleading. There is a lot of dead time, much more than others sports i think. Besides ordinary rest, time that goes to flexing your muscles in to the mirror, holding the saltbasket or just stand and watch other guys wrestle. (Neener, neener...) .

Seriously, its my feeling that there is much dead time. One reason may be that there usually only is one ring at the heya. I know there are other activities than bouts but that doesnt seem to popular.

[Fay]

Keiko in the morning is sureley not all they do. When I went to Takanohana Beya they also showed me a room with various sports equipment for the weight and condition training which they do mostly in the afternoon they said.

[Otokonoyama]

This 4 hours a day keiko is a bit missleading. There is a lot of dead time, much more than others sports i think. Besides ordinary rest, time that goes to flexing your muscles in to the mirror, holding the saltbasket or just stand and watch other guys wrestle. (Neener, neener...) .

have you ever tried sumo keiko? I played soccer for many years and no training session ever was as tough as those in sumo. Yes there is standing around but that's because if you did butsukari and fighting for 4 hours straight you would be dead.

It's the standing around that'll kill ya! I watched asageiko at Sadogatake on one memorable occasion when some poor young deshi was sitting around while his sempai used the ring (only one ring, this was at a temporary lodging near Nagoya, not home-field with two), and Kotokanyu came and beat the shit outta him for not doing any work on his own. After the beating, he was forced to do push-ups til exhaustion. Being a lower ranked guy, he'd already finished his main portion of training, so he couldn't crank out very many. Another pounding, then back to the push ups. This cycle was repeated til the poor bastard couldn't even muster the energy to ward off any more blows from his accoster, or even raise himself from his prone position.

[paolo]

Everything is OK about rikishis in general, but Asashoryu ? What does he do ? What is HIS training like ? Does he really traing so little ? Thanks

[Petr]

This 4 hours a day keiko is a bit missleading. There is a lot of dead time, much more than others sports i think. Besides ordinary rest, time that goes to flexing your muscles in to the mirror, holding the saltbasket or just stand and watch other guys wrestle. (Neener, neener...) .

have you ever tried sumo keiko? I played soccer for many years and no training session ever was as tough as those in sumo. Yes there is standing around but that's because if you did butsukari and fighting for 4 hours straight you would be dead.

He has. His sumo was kinda similar to yours (less experienced but more powerful). I remember I was thinking that it would be interesting to have you to go against each other.

[Afrozuna]

Everything is OK about rikishis in general, but Asashoryu ? What does he do ? What is HIS training like ? Does he really traing so little ? Thanks

I echo your question. I also want to know what is meant by the Yokozuna not training enough. Do they mean he does not train enough "in Japan" as he is known to leave for Mongolia after every Basho. That would also explain this so-called "outside help". Obviously he wouldn't be winning a basho without sufficient training. We saw what happened after he had been promoted to Yokozuna. He perfommed poorly at the subsequent basho as the celebrations of the promotion had taken too much out of his training schedule. I think the Yokozuna Deliberatin Council was not clear on this one.

[Kaikitsune Makoto]

The amount of athletes in various sports who lose a LOT of power and ability quite fast after retirement is huge. Human body is equipped with very fine system of keeping the balance. If you have abnormal amount of muscle which you have gotten through training, you NEED to work out to maintain the muscle. Body won't keep unnecessary muscle mass without a good reason. Then again because steroids exists, this is not always so true and by ingesting those a lot, one can maintain the body reasonably well even when injuries prevent almost all significant keiko. But of course training is the only way to maintain ability, sharpness and power in the moves. Power training is very delecate thing. It would be "easy" to just work out 8 hours a day if that would be beneficial but it might well be that many rikishi overwork and doing less work out would make them stronger. Again steroids gives amazing advantage in this by enabling that abnormally fast recuperation and anabolic state. Even without steroids, all bodies response to keiko differently. Japan has a strong group mentality and individual training is probably not that much taken into consideration.

Asashoryu most likely does much more keiko that "2 days". He most likely vacuums a lot of steroids too. If he would do only 2 real keiko days in 2 months, he would lose quite a lot already, considering the massive overload of beef his body needs to carry all the time and would rather lose it fast if given the chance. If Shoryu would do 2 days of real keiko in 2 months and would not take steroids and would still maintain power...well then he would be a physiological wonder. Maintaning physical prowess is not like maintaining some skill like driving bicycle or playing a tune from the 60s after 8 years of break.

If I would be evil steroid-coach who would want to build maegashira rikishi A ready for basho X in 2 months, this is what I would do:

1-2 weeks: Lower level steroid usage, quite a lot of semi-light keiko with makushita and lower. Lot of butsugari, lot of streching.

3-4 weeks: Heavier doses of roids, progressive intensity in butsugari in every second day so that 4th week butsugari would be with full intensity to exhaustion. Also keiko with sekitori and good massage

5-6 weeks: Maximum roid use, 5th week a bit lighter, 6th week all out keiko with no limits. The extreme keiko week. Death or gain.

7-8 weeks: Toning down the roids a bit, 7th week a lot of technical stuff and honing the skills, still heavy keiko too. 8th week, semi-light keiko with emphasis on sleeping good naps, eating well and as basho approaches, lot of light sharpness keiko against toriteki.

HONBASHO!

But then again injuries mess these kind of plans for many rikishi so adaptations needed. Basic frame can be such though.

[Kintamayama]

Everything is OK about rikishis in general, but Asashoryu ? What does he do ? What is HIS training like ? Does he really traing so little ? Thanks

I think you are missing the point. No one knows exactly how much every rikishi trains daily, since it's done in the confines of the heya, and not all heyas are open to everyone at all times. The point is, as a Yokozuna, your training is expected to be high profile-you are expected to show yourself at degeiko, at the open sessions at your own heya where as a Yokozuna you generate interest, etc.. the reason is to motivate the other rikishi by your own deeds. Yes, this may sound lame, but that's how it works. There were pre-bashos where Asa made the rounds of many heyas daily and knocked the crap out of his opponents. Before the last basho, other than the YDC soken (where he looked really bad..) and 2 other isolated instances, he was nowhere to be seen. He did not show up publicly, did not keep a high profile. That is bad, from the bosses' point of view.

This is what the YDC and everyone's sister meant. They don't give a rat's ass about the stories of him running around climbing mountains in Mongolia and using "special training techniques". They want it to be seen, in Japan. This wasn't invented for Asa's sake, it's the way it's always been. And more so now, when there is only one Yokozuna to set an example for the others. His training as the general public knows it is just the way the press reports it- when he trains, he trains, and it doesn't matter if it's for 15 minutes or 4 hours. When he doesn't train, it pisses off the bosses, for the reasons I mentioned above.

You have to see Sumo training at least once to understand what it actually is. It has no resemblance to training in any other sports.

[Kintamayama]

Asashoryu most likely does much more keiko that "2 days". He most likely vacuums a lot of steroids too.

Proof? You are treading delicate roads here.. you are liable to be sued for libel, sir. I would like , for once, to see even the softest of hard evidence to back up your relentless crusade against my hero.

[philafuji]

Maybe instead of comparing Asashoryu's to others it should be the others finding out how to train like Asashoryu's training.

There is such a thing as OVER TRAINING which can have a major effect on performance.

It might be possibe that over training is a real problem in many cases.

[Jonosuke]

Anyone who has done 100 shikos will know that alone can kill you for a day. There are some rikishis who do 1,000 shikos. Or hours doing suri-ashi or teppo. Looking at them doing it is much easier than doing it yourself.

Not all training are training sessions involving other rikishis. Chiyonofuji did over 1000 push-ups a day just to strengthen his shoulders above and beyond his other regular training. Akebono when he was starting out did drag around a truck tire for hours daily.

Takanohana/Wakanohana when they joined their father's heya woke up 3 AM to clean the dohyo and started working out 4 AM before others showed up.

There are many rikishis who train individually outside of their morning training (especially sekitoris as they have no other major daily duty to perform except perhaps meeting with supporters. I saw NHK's year-end review program and it showed Ama visiting a local bodybuilding gym in Ryogoku and working out alone. He said he knew others were working on their own and he had to at least to do the same to stay with them.

But one thing that is required more to upper ranked rikishis especially yokozuna and ozekis is to instruct and supervise younger rikishis as well as "lending" their chest. One of the things that Asashoryu has been accused often is that he does so little of this.

Edited February 1, 2007 by Jonosuke

[Takemi]

have you ever tried sumo keiko? I played soccer for many years and no training session ever was as tough as those in sumo. Yes there is standing around but that's because if you did butsukari and fighting for 4 hours straight you would be dead.

Im not saying that keiko cant be/isnt hard. I bet there is hard fotball practise too. Afterall a training session, in any sport, is only as hard as you make it. I am saying that there is much dead time and it could been done alot more effective, why not train hard for 1,5 to 2 hours instead of just standing around in 4?

He has. His sumo was kinda similar to yours (less experienced but more powerful). I remember I was thinking that it would be interesting to have you to go against each other.

Thanks Petr. I remember it too, why didnt it happen? Next time Im in Japan lets make it happen. (Pulling hair...)

Sorry for being a bit off topic.

Edited February 1, 2007 by Takemi

[Sashohitowa]

Asashoryu most likely does much more keiko that "2 days". He most likely vacuums a lot of steroids too.

Proof? You are treading delicate roads here.. you are liable to be sued for libel, sir. I would like , for once, to see even the softest of hard evidence to back up your relentless crusade against my hero.

(Pulling hair...)

Why yo need to take steroids, while you are fighting a fixed matches anyway?...

[Shomishuu]

From zeenews.com (India edition):

Tokyo, Feb 01: Serbian fifth seed Ana Ivanovic said that Sumo could offer pointers for the tennis players.

"I was very surprised to see the unique culture that is so different from that of my country. This experience is helpful to my playing tennis, such as the operation of play and strategy," she said.

France's Severine Bremond said she was impressed by the Sumo wrestlers' mental and physical strength.

"I was surprised that Sumo wrestlers are gigantic. However, the most surprising thing is that a bigger Sumo wrestler does not always win. I saw a small Sumo wrestler throw a big one," she said.

Despite being in Asashoryu's stable, the Mongolian champion did not show up himself.

OK, I know it probably means nothing, but seeing it come up while reading this thread was just amusing, that's all. :-D

Edited February 2, 2007 by Shomishuu

[Ryukaze]

Asashoryu most likely does much more keiko that "2 days". He most likely vacuums a lot of steroids too.

Proof? You are treading delicate roads here.. you are liable to be sued for libel, sir. I would like , for once, to see even the softest of hard evidence to back up your relentless crusade against my hero.

He he he easy there big guy maybe it's you who should find some evidence and just silence the critics.......cause it's more than likely, (I myself have often considered the possibility.) I've often thought Chiyonofuji to be a prime candidate, (sudden jump in weight and muscle gain as well as rank and performance) not to mention his uncanny longevity, I suppose if I had to put my money on anyone......... Asashoryu however is a bit more tricky to tell, I haven't noticed any unusual jump in weight or performance with him ever (nothing out of the "ordinary" anyhow I suppose.) He does seem rather fat still though,I suppose if I had to put my money on him id say no but you never know..................

Edited February 2, 2007 by Ryukaze

[Doitsuyama]

Asashoryu most likely does much more keiko that "2 days". He most likely vacuums a lot of steroids too.

Proof? You are treading delicate roads here.. you are liable to be sued for libel, sir. I would like , for once, to see even the softest of hard evidence to back up your relentless crusade against my hero.

:-D

Why yo need to take steroids, while you are fighting a fixed matches anyway?...

There is a strong connection. You must be strong enough to be able to fix matches - a bit of irony here I know but it makes sense. Even the "Freakonomics" article on 7-7 bout fixing (from former years, I'd say not going on anymore) found that bout fixing can only be done if the fixed winner actually has the appropriate strength.

In other words... Why let Asashoryu buy his way to the yusho if he is too weak? But it makes sense if he is strong enough.

[Doitsuyama]

Asashoryu however is a bit more tricky to tell, I haven't noticed any unusual jump in weight or performance with him ever (nothing out of the "ordinary" anyhow I suppose.)

Well, I can help you out here - his weight jumped from 106 kg to 128 kg (from Haru 2000 to Haru 2001), after remaining at 106 kg from Haru 1999 to Haru 2000. Maybe he discovered potato chips and Dr Pepper's in 2000?

Edited February 2, 2007 by Doitsuyama

[Ryukaze]

106kg!? I thought his starting weight was somewhere around 245lb or 112kg??? Nonetheless thats still pretty big for a 19 year old ,(I weighed a meager 178lb when I was 19 gosh I coulda joined pro sumo right?!) Still a year is a long time though so who knows, fat can be put on rather rapidly also, I've just never noticed any uncanny muscle growth or definition on him seems if he'd been using since then (or even during that time tp gain the weight) you'd see alot more muscle on him rather than fat, (as he's a fat m'fer now) so anyhow............Technically speaking since there are no rules against using the substance it's fair game for him as much as the next guy I guess so these "nihonjin's" better get on the boat lol. By the way Doitsuyama where did you get the weight statistics from for Asashoryu on those dates?

Edited February 2, 2007 by Ryukaze

[aderechelsea]

sumo magazines list body weights every now and then.

And i think every March the Kyokai holds and official weight-in of its rikishi.

[Takemi]

106kg!? I thought his starting weight was somewhere around 245lb or 112kg??? Nonetheless thats still pretty big for a 19 year old ,(I weighed a meager 178lb when I was 19 gosh I coulda joined pro sumo right?!) Still a year is a long time though so who knows, fat can be put on rather rapidly also, I've just never noticed any uncanny muscle growth or definition on him seems if he'd been using since then (or even during that time tp gain the weight) you'd see alot more muscle on him rather than fat, (as he's a fat m'fer now) so anyhow............Technically speaking since there are no rules against using the substance it's fair game for him as much as the next guy I guess so these "nihonjin's" better get on the boat lol. By the way Doitsuyama where did you get the weight statistics from for Asashoryu on those dates?

I would think Asa have the same mass of muscle as for example chiyonofuji had... Asa has jus more fat. See more in the "bodyfat percentage" thread.