Persistence Watch

[Asashosakari]

Sugishita is officially a record holder. He lost once more and broke Morikawa's record of consecutive losses. He is also boasts of a 1-34 career record with a fusensho as his only win.

For the purposes of documenting this achievement, courtesy of ilovesumo: Sugishita vs Kinryuzan

The non-winner:

BTW, I should say that I have no idea if either Morikawa or Sugishita is really the record-holder for consecutive losses, but I imagine there weren't many rikishi in history who might have done worse, if only because you couldn't exit maezumo without showing the capability to win in times past. (BTW, does anyone know when the change to "everybody passes maezumo" was made?)

Ishii also lost against a kyujo returnee and finished winless this basho (0-7). His embarassing winning percentage gets even worse.

If alumni dai-persister Daikosei wins his final bout, Ishii will fall back to being the second-worst rikishi (or worst non-Sugishita rikishi) again. With a Daikosei loss Ishii will maintain a .176 vs .173 "lead".

Edited January 19, 2007 by Asashosakari

[Kintamayama]

Sugishita is the first rikishi to sport a turtleneck mawashi.

[aderechelsea]

this bout is one of the funniest things i watched on youtube ..... EVER !!!

this guy is worse than i remember.

In the previous topic on persisitent rikishi i had posted some notes i kept on Daikosei, while watching the bouts back in Natsu 2006.

today i dug out something on Sugishita, which i had written on the torikumi sheet from day 13. It is a similar story to the one i posted here but it was a different incident.

"I can believe this guy is a rikishi. After his ridiculous defeat he didn't bow correctly and Onomatsu Oyakata called him back to do it right. He failed to show humility once again and Onomatsu made him return once again and this time he was looking rather angry and he said a lot of things, possibly bad. In the match this guy just laid down after the tachi-ai"

so i guess the strategy "play dead after the tachi-ai" is being practiced at keiko ... (Sign of approval...)

[Iwagakki]

Oh, honestly. >(Sign of approval...)

Sugishita was falling down BEFORE the tachiai. Nobody is that pathetic. He's doing it on purpose. It's some kind of "attitude" thing.

All he's going to to is get his name in the record books (if there is such a record) and then ditch sumo. That way he can tell his idiot friends at the Family Mart that he was a rikishi, and that he holds the record....blah blah.

He's just a slacker with an attitude, and he's an insult to sumo.

[Jonosuke]

Sometimes you asked for something more than you bargained for and this video must be surely that.

I think it's just a morbid curiosity wanting to know how bad this guy truly is and now I have no doubt that he is that bad. I think my grandmother could have had shown more decent sumo than this Sugishita. I am sorry to say it but this guy is bodaciously and categorically awful.

Before seeing the video I somehow pictured this guy got a grit and tenacity to continue despite all the tribulations and adversity but I changed my mind.

I wish I hadn't seen the video.

The best I could say about him is to hoping to see his name in the retirement list as soon as possible. I am sure there are chanko shops that could employ him or even Wakanohana III could take a pity on him and offer him a job in his restaurant. Every man has a calling and unfortunately his is not for sumo.

Separately about Mae-zumo. There used to be something called "Honchu" one time. It was between Mae-zumo and Jonokuchi.

Initially if a new recruit won his bout, he would have remained on the dohyo to face another Mae-zumo rikishi. In Mae-zumo there was no shikiri so it was also called "Tobikomi" (literally Flying In). If he won two straight in Mae-zumo, he would have gone to Honchu where he would get to do a shikiri.

In Honchu, if he won two straight, he was given one "win". If he won three "wins" then he would get to face a Jonokuchi rikishi in the last three days. If he got a kachikoshi then he would have skipped Jonokuchi and was then given a Jonidan ranking in the next basho.

However in this system "Shin-Jo" meant a Mae-zumo rikishi to be in Honchu so there were rikishis who took months to make a banzuke debut (or some who never got on banzuke and left Ozumo).

This system was abolished entirely in the 1973 Haru basho so I imagine soon after that time, all rikishis who particiapted in Mae-zumo got to be placed in the next basho's banzuke.

Currently if a Mae-zumo rikishi is a returnee, he would not be presented at the introductory ceremony but not so long ago they were introduced as well. I recall the cureent Tatsunami oyakata (former Asahiyutaka) was presented three times and made it to all the way to komusubi, which must be some kind of record.

Edited January 20, 2007 by Jonosuke

[Asashosakari]

Darn, now I regret wasting the phrase "fan favourite Sugishita" earlier. (Laughing...)

In more serious news, let's congratulate Shikoroyama-beya's Iwasa on his 4th win today! (Clapping wildly...) He becomes the second rikishi to exit the club this basho.

The other 3-3'er Tateishi did not fare so well and we'll get to keep him around for a bit longer. He's now on a 1-6, 3-4, 1-6, 3-4 pattern, so perhaps he really likes the Tokyo tournaments.

Edited January 20, 2007 by Asashosakari

[aderechelsea]

you didn't mention Sugishita got his 0-7 today.

It was an oshidashi loss, so this was not a "roll over" again ...

[Itachi]

I'm not sure that Sugishita was intentionally losing. I think he had one plan - to grab the belt. When he couldn't get it, he had nowhere to go - he was so far bent over and leaning forward that he was sure to be pushed down and so he elected to fall safely to avoid pain. After all the loses he has endured, and considering his youth and lack of size, I can appreciate that.

Certainly, he has no talent or understanding of sumo and should retire but I can't help but wonder how he is during keiko. Does he give a good effort there or just float around? Does he get harshly punished or ignored?

Why is he allowed to continue? Is he useful around the heya? Does his family contribute money?

I haven't seen bouts of the other 'persistents'. Are there any of them who put up a good effort en route to losing?

[aderechelsea]

Ishii had a good bout earlier in the basho but lost anyway

[Asashosakari]

you didn't mention Sugishita got his 0-7 today.

What, and rob you of the pleasure of pointing it out? (Clapping wildly...)

At any rate, my impression of the posted Sugishita bout was that he seems to be afraid of the tachiai impact (such that it is down there in Jonokuchi), though I probably shouldn't generalize from just one bout.

Edit: BTW, since you've seen a few Morikawa bouts, adere...where would you put him on the Sugishita<->Ishii effort scale?

Edited January 20, 2007 by Asashosakari

[aderechelsea]

you didn't mention Sugishita got his 0-7 today.

What, and rob you of the pleasure of pointing it out? :-P

At any rate, my impression of the posted Sugishita bout was that he seems to be afraid of the tachiai impact (such that it is down there in Jonokuchi), though I probably shouldn't generalize from just one bout.

thanks for the interest .... (Clapping wildly...)

and i am telling you .. he did that at least once more in his carrer (8 months ago). So now it is a safe assumption (Laughing...)

[aderechelsea]

Edit: BTW, since you've seen a few Morikawa bouts, adere...where would you put him on the Sugishita<->Ishii effort scale?

Ishii - Morikawa - the eternal void - Sugishita

i might be confusing "effort" with "skill" between ishii and morikawa but i guess they are close together in both categories.

[Petr]

I have seen many losses like the Sugishta's one in my short amateur sumo life. I have seen guys who have been ganbarizing in keiko for months and really wanted to win in a tournament to loose like this. If you think that it is easy just to run into a strange big guy with your head, just try it it. It is not. If you think that you can slack around in Naruto-beya, then you're wrong. This boy probably gets pushed beyond his limits every day. After all that, getting only the left overs when everyone else finished eating does not make it easy to build one's body. However, if you want to use the thread just to laugh at the young boys who live the thoughest lives in Ozumo, go ahead.

[Jakusotsu]

I have seen many losses like the Sugishta's one in my short amateur sumo life. I have seen guys who have been ganbarizing in keiko for months and really wanted to win in a tournament to loose like this. If you think that it is easy just to run into a strange big guy with your head, just try it it. It is not. If you think that you can slack around in Naruto-beya, then you're wrong. This boy probably gets pushed beyond his limits every day. After all that, getting only the left overs when everyone else finished eating does not make it easy to build one's body. However, if you want to use the thread just to laugh at the young boys who live the thoughest lives in Ozumo, go ahead.

Thanks, Petr! That's the most sensible thing I've been reading so far in this petty thread.

[aderechelsea]

the logic "if you haven't tried it yourself then don't comment on it" is childish. Should we all stop posting here and leave you and Nishi chat together?

i disagree with the tone of your post in general but it is just a matter how we perceive humour, so i'll leave it there.

[Naganoyama]

I seem to remember, in the film about the Sumo School, that one of the two featured rikishi had a huge fear of going in head first and bumping heads with his opponent. He knew he had to do it because the oyakata were all on at him about it. He really wanted to do it and kept on trying, but when it came to it his body just would not obey. I can sort of see where Petr is coming from here. It can't be that easy.

However, if you want to do Sumo, then you have to conquer your fears. Perhaps Sugishita's desire is not as great as his fear.

Anyway please feel free to continue your commentary Adere-san. I think that love of sumo is the main qualification for posting here and for that you get an A+.

(Clapping wildly...)

[slt]

the logic "if you haven't tried it yourself then don't comment on it" is childish. Should we all stop posting here and leave you and Nishi chat together?

i disagree with the tone of your post in general but it is just a matter how we perceive humour, so i'll leave it there.

Petr hasn't actually said anything like "if you haven't tried it yourself then don't comment on it". I don't see the problem with putting things in perspective through a bit of personal experience, pointing out that being a low-ranked rikishi does not make life easy in a beya, and that his last year probably hasn't been a vacation in some fancy onsen...

Personally, I think it's difficult to make any deep psychological interpretation of a rikishi's reasons for pursuing his dead-end sumo career based on one (or two) bouts. My sense so far is that he seems pretty sure that he'll get whacked - not surprisingly, given his brilliant track record. Given that, when the taichiai goes bad, he probably has a strong tendency to give up immediately.

Not exactly the epytome of sumo-dou, but from there to actually considering that he's doing this to "achieve" some kind of negative record... (In a state of confusion...)

[aderechelsea]

humour people ... humour !!!!!

[Asashosakari]

I don't admire their sumo but these guys get my respect for just getting up each morning and staying with it.

And that's what the thread is supposed to be about, drawing some positive attention to the guys who don't shoot up to Makushita on pure talent alone but rather have to struggle for every single win. But I must admit it's sometimes hard to resist snickering when somebody (i.e. Sugishita, and Morikawa three years ago) is just so much worse than everybody else even among this select group.

At any rate, I'm a bit miffed about Jakusotsu's "petty thread" comment...what, would you prefer somber silence whenever one of these guys fails to win yet again? Frankly, ignoring them altogether would strike me as even more disrespectful of their efforts, but I suppose some people wouldn't want to be reminded it's not all glitz and Makuuchi in Ozumo.

Edit: But yes, I thought Iwagakki's suggestion that Sugishita is losing on purpose was also a bit out of line.

Edited January 20, 2007 by Asashosakari

[Iwagakki]

Ishii had a good bout earlier in the basho but lost anyway

He did have a good match, actually. That wasn't such a bad loss. He just has poor balance, and, ummm...Light contact? on the doyho. Not much traction. Maybe he can learn it, or maybe not, but at least he fights. That's good, even if he doesn't go anywhere. I generally like the lowest ranked guys, because they are doing sumo without any reward, sort of, and often it is just a very personal thing. Not everyone will make it to any level in sumo, but it's cool to see a guy who is battling his own way through, and little else matters. At least he's trying.

But Sugishita didn't even try. You guys were talking about how hard it is, and that "you should try it", and so on. Well, I think that it isn't so easy to generalize on the positive side either. I suspect that there are a whole lot of "disgruntled" guys in sumo, like Nishi said. And maybe a lot of them "break" and go away. Some of them break, and don't go away. Like Sugishita here, he really should consider his options, I think. I admire perseverance. In fact, I live by the principle. But when it goes beyond perserverance, into whatever, then it is time to rethink.

Edited January 20, 2007 by Iwagakki

[Gusoyama]

I think a lot of the disappointment with Sugishita comes from the fact that most people(especially in this thread) like to root for the underdog. This is associated with "Rocky Syndrome", where the underdog is a gritty kind of person/team that is willing to do anything to overcome their obstacles and beat the more talented/gifted foe. When an underdog backer sees that his gritty underdog hero is lacking in the above qualities, it leaves a bitter taste in their mouth. At least thats the way I see it.

I feel bad for Sugishita, and I wish that something would just click in him, and he'd grow more, or get stronger, or gain more sumo sense, or something, and be able to get a couple wins under his belt.

[Jakusotsu]

At any rate, I'm a bit miffed about Jakusotsu's "petty thread" comment...what, would you prefer somber silence whenever one of these guys fails to win yet again?

Silence? Gosh, no, but a little more respect and a little less "humour", as adere calls it.

Frankly, ignoring them altogether would strike me as even more disrespectful of their efforts, but I suppose some people wouldn't want to be reminded it's not all glitz and Makuuchi in Ozumo.

Now You indeed managed to get me all wrong. (In a state of confusion...)

But I take it that all Your efforts in keeping these tables and stats alive is indeed some kind of respect rather than just a pet peeve (hence the pun "petty"). Case rested.

[Kintamayama]

I think this whole thread stems from our inherent respect for ANYONE who chooses to enter the world of Sumo with all that it implies. I don't think any one poster on this entire thread meant to belittle even the weakest Sugishita. The mere existence of this here thread and the pretty massive posts it generated shows that it is indeed of great interest, although each of us may find a different aspect of said interest.

This being said, I think that if the shinpans themselves sometimes have a laugh at these guys' expense (I've seen it a few times..), we are entitled to it as well.

I am convinced no malice is intended by anyone. Personally, this is THE thread for me this basho, Wakanohou (hahahahahahaha) notwithstanding..

[Asashosakari]

Silence? Gosh, no, but a little more respect and a little less "humour", as adere calls it.

Fair enough if you think it's overboard, but people make fun of it when a sekitori loses in a strange (or even suspicious) fashion all the time, and that generally doesn't mean that those people are disrespectful of that rikishi's ability and effort altogether. The same applies here - that bout by Sugishita was simply comically bad, and that deserves comment (even more so with it being a record-breaking loss), but at the same time I have no doubt that he's not always so unfortunate-looking in his losses, and I'll be the first (well, second, after adere) to applaud him when he finally wins one.

At any rate, a guy like Ishii has averaged only slightly more than one win per basho, but I'm sure you've seen that people were quite respectful of his performance in the bout Nishinoshima posted. And I mostly agree with Kintamayama...if even the oyakata are sometimes amused about these guys, there's little reason for us fans to be more Catholic than the Pope on this issue.

But I take it that all Your efforts in keeping these tables and stats alive is indeed some kind of respect rather than just a pet peeve (hence the pun "petty").

Pet project, perhaps. A pet peeve is something completely different. Mostly it's supposed to be a small counter-balance to all the cookie-cutter threads about the latest fast-rising superstars. (And by cookie-cutter I mean the whole progression of those threads - from the early overhype to the inevitable gnashing of teeth when the guy falls short of the hype sooner or later.)

Edited January 20, 2007 by Asashosakari

[Jakusotsu]

Mostly it's supposed to be a small counter-balance to all the cookie-cutter threads about the latest fast-rising superstars. (And by cookie-cutter I mean the whole progression of those threads - from the early overhype to the inevitable gnashing of teeth when the guy falls short of the hype sooner or later.)

Now You won me over! Count me in as a supporter of the Persistence Watch thread. (I am not worthy...)