Persistence Watch

[Asashosakari]

Many thanks to adere-san for keeping things rolling! (In jonokuchi...) Here are the full standings through Day 8:

Shikona	Heya	Debut	MK	Current Rank	Highest Rank	Record	Win%	Last Basho	This Basho
Morikawa	Otake	Natsu 2003	21	Jonokuchi 23 West	Jonokuchi 5	31-117-3	0.209	2-5	2-2
Daishiryu	Kise	Haru 2004	16	Jonokuchi 18 East	Jonokuchi 1	29-87	0.250	3-4	2-2
Ishii	Magaki	Haru 2004	16	Jonokuchi 18 West	Jonidan 133	21-95	0.181	3-4	0-4
Omori	Naruto	Kyushu 2004	10	Jonokuchi 14 East	Jonidan 130	31-45-6	0.408	3-4	3-1
Iwanaga	Michinoku	Haru 2005	10	Jonokuchi 22 East	Jonokuchi 7	18-56	0.243	2-5	1-3
Yamamoto	Naruto	Haru 2005	8	Jonokuchi 35 East	Jonokuchi 2	18-42-7	0.300	1-1-3 (mae)	1-3
Kida	Arashio	Haru 2005	5	Banzuke-gai	Jonokuchi 19	12-17-13	0.414	---	---
Kotoyamaguchi	Sadogatake	Haru 2006	4	Jonokuchi 15 West	Jonokuchi 15	9-23	0.281	3-4	1-3
Wakahizen	Hanakago	Haru 2006	4	Jonokuchi 21 West	Jonokuchi 21	10-22	0.313	2-5	1-3
Iwasa	Shikoroyama	Haru 2006	4	Jonokuchi 23 East	Jonokuchi 23	12-20	0.375	2-5	3-1
Tsunehikari	Nishikido	Haru 2006	4	Jonokuchi 24 West	Jonokuchi 20	11-17-4	0.393	1-4-2	1-3
Sugishita	Naruto	Haru 2006	4	Jonokuchi 36 West	Jonokuchi 30	1-31	0.031	0-7	0-4
Higashi	Shikoroyama	Natsu 2006	3	Jonokuchi 20 East	Jonokuchi 20	5-20	0.200	3-4	0-4
Tateishi	Dewanoumi	Natsu 2006	3	Jonokuchi 25 West	Jonokuchi 25	6-19	0.240	1-6	1-3
Kanai	Michinoku	Nagoya 2005	3	Jonokuchi 34 East	Jonokuchi 24	7-18-7	0.280	1-4 (mae)	1-3
Asaamami	Takasago	Haru 2005	3	Banzuke-gai	Jonokuchi 26	7-10-11	0.412	---	---

Morikawa's record so far is indeed something of a watershed moment for him...while he has had an impressive eleven 2-5 records in his 21-basho career, this is only the second time that he has managed to be 2-2 on nakabi, with the other one happening the very first time he exceeded 1 win in a basho (back in Aki 2004). I suspect by "the unthinkable" adere means kachi-koshi, but for Morikawa even 3-4 is uncharted territory yet, so let's not get too excited. ;-)

And in non-Morikawa news, surprisingly Omori is not the only one with a positive record at this point as short-time persister Iwasa has gone on a three-bout winning streak after his initial Day 2 loss. His Shikoroyama stablemate (and fresh addition to the list) Higashi on the other hand seems to be continuing his Jekyll-and-Hyde performances, following up on his qualifying 2-5, 0-7, 3-4 records with another zero-win basho so far. Also winless are fan favourite Sugishita and Ishii, the current #3 among the lowest active winning percentages. Both he and his fellow 16-basho dai-persister Daishiryu narrowly missed kachi-koshi with 3-4 in Kyushu, and (unlike Ishii) Daishiryu seems determined to take another stab at it, currently sitting at 2-2.

The seven guys so far unmentioned all are at 1-3 and will likely find it difficult to stave off make-koshi for much longer.

Overall scoring is at 17-39, including 12 internal bouts and a 5-27 record (0.156) against off-list opponents. Here are the 12 very persistent bouts:

Day 1: Jk21w  Wakahizen (1-0)	 oshidashi	  Jk22e  Iwanaga (0-1)
Day 3: Jk35e  Yamamoto (1-1)	  hatakikomi	 Jk34e  Kanai (0-2)
   Jk23e  Iwasa (1-1)		 yorikiri	   Jk22e  Iwanaga (0-2)
   Jk18e  Daishiryu (1-1)	 oshidashi	  Jk18w  Ishii (0-2)
Day 5: Jk22e  Iwanaga (1-2)	   oshidashi	  Jk20e  Higashi (0-3)
   Jk15w  Kotoyamaguchi (1-2) yorikiri	   Jk18w  Ishii (0-3)
Day 6: Jk34e  Kanai (1-2)		 oshidashi	  Jk36w  Sugishita (0-3)
   Jk24w  Tsunehikari (1-2)   oshitaoshi	 Jk25w  Tateishi (0-3)
   Jk23e  Iwasa (2-1)		 yorikiri	   Jk23w  Morikawa (1-2)
Day 8: Jk23w  Morikawa (2-2)	  yorikiri	   Jk22e  Iwanaga (1-3)
   Jk25w  Tateishi (1-3)	  yorikiri	   Jk20e  Higashi (0-4)
   Jk14e  Omori (3-1)		 yorikiri	   Jk18e  Daishiryu (2-2)

And the 5 outside wins:

Day 1: Jk23w  Morikawa (1-0)	  oshidashi	  Jk24e  Akinosato (0-1)
Day 2: Jk14e  Omori (1-0)		 yorikiri	   Jk13w  Hata (0-1)
Day 4: Jk14e  Omori (2-0)		 hatakikomi	 Jk12w  Nankaio (1-1)
Day 5: Jk18e  Daishiryu (2-1)	 hatakikomi	 Jk17e  Yoshidayama (1-2)
Day 7: Jk23e  Iwasa (3-1)		 yorikiri	   Jk20w  Izumi (2-2)

Edited January 14, 2007 by Asashosakari

[aderechelsea]

(In jonokuchi...)

[Asashosakari]

BTW, I hesitate to even mention it (jinx!), but wouldn't it be a nice "passing of the torch" moment if Morikawa achieves kachi-koshi in the same basho that Sugishita breaks his consecutive-losses record?

[aderechelsea]

we had 4 bouts today for our "merry band of persistence" .. they all lost :-)

Iwasa 3-2 : loses his first chance for the KK .. still though 3 bouts to save face.

Kotoyamaguchi 1-4 : 5th MK in 5 career bashos

Wakahizen 1-4 : 5th MK in 5 career bashos

Higashi 0-5 : and the downhill goes on .....

[Itachi]

If Sugishita and Morikawa have a match where Morikawa can win his 4th and Sugishita his first then shouldn't there be kensho for the winner?

Is it possible to purchase kensho for a non-sekitori match?

Are there enough of us persistence watchers with enough resolve to put one up? How much would it cost?

Edited January 15, 2007 by Itachi

[aderechelsea]

i think you cannot

.. but if you can, 500 dollars is not much if we gather.

[kaiguma]

i think you cannot

.. but if you can, 500 dollars is not much if we gather.

Not possible, but if it were you need to pay to have the banner made as well . . . so while it would be an awesome and worthy investment to make a sumo-forum banner that anyone on the forum can use, who's going to put down the initial capital? I remember Futeno gave a few more details as to the cost of the banner itself, and Mado-san translated that post from his blog somewhere on the forum.

For now, put $500 cash in an envelope and mail it to the winner's heya! Doesn't NSK keep 1/2 anyway? So you'd be (Censored...) ing the system too! :-) Just make sure you explain why you're sending it and it will conceptually be more than just a heya donation. You could even specify that it must be kept aside as the start of a kesho-mawashi fund for the lucky rikishi . . . Ok now I'm poking fun, let me stop (Laughing...)

Edited January 15, 2007 by kaiguma

[Asashosakari]

Iwasa 3-2 : loses his first chance for the KK .. still though 3 bouts to save face.

3? They're really gonna make sure somebody get a KK, huh. (Wearing a paperbag...)

BTW, I almost missed it too when I checked the results today...Ishii also ticketed his fifth loss against a Jonidan opponent.

Edited January 15, 2007 by Asashosakari

[Kintamayama]

i think you cannot

.. but if you can, 500 dollars is not much if we gather.

I'm pretty sure there are no banners in Juryo as well. Does anyone know if it is not allowed, or if it is, did it ever happen? Now THAT would be something to do and get in the papers for-say, Wakanohou-Tochiouzan? I'm willing to put up the first 50$.

Edited January 15, 2007 by Kintamayama

[Doitsuyama]

For now, put $500 cash in an envelope and mail it to the winner's heya! Doesn't NSK keep 1/2 anyway?

You are working under some false concepts here... The NSK does keep half of the kensho money - but only a twelfth is actually going to the NSK, justifiably because of costs for yobidashi who are carrying the kensho, printing them in the daily program etc. If anything the NSK should get more as that marketing wouldn't be possible without it - that's my opinion.

The other 5/12 the NSK is just keeping hold for taxes, retirement funds etc for the rikishi.

[Kintamayama]

I'm pretty sure kensho are only allowed in Makuuchi. However if people are serious about this then I will contribute $50 as well for sure. Thing is that the 60,000 only covers once around the dohyo. If we were to go to all the trouble of getting one made I think we would be expected to show it a least once a tournament.

Then, I pledge 50$ every basho. That would be the coolest 300$ per year I ever dished out..

PS- Do you think it would be a tax write-off?

Edited January 15, 2007 by Kintamayama

[Doitsuyama]

Before you all get too serious about that, let me remind you that lower division pairings are made mostly between rikishi of same wins. Sugishita with 0 wins just wouldn't face Morikawa with 3 wins.

[Doitsuyama]

I'm pretty sure kensho are only allowed in Makuuchi. However if people are serious about this then I will contribute $50 as well for sure. Thing is that the 60,000 only covers once around the dohyo. If we were to go to all the trouble of getting one made I think we would be expected to show it a least once a tournament.

Also, weren't kensho only sold on packages of at least five per sponsor and basho?

[Kintamayama]

I'm pretty sure kensho are only allowed in Makuuchi. However if people are serious about this then I will contribute $50 as well for sure. Thing is that the 60,000 only covers once around the dohyo. If we were to go to all the trouble of getting one made I think we would be expected to show it a least once a tournament.

Also, weren't kensho only sold on packages of at least five per sponsor and basho?

Is it really important to rain on our parade with FACTS??

[Gacktoh]

All in Japanese, but you can find all information of Kenshou from the following links

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%87%B8%E8%...9B%B8%E6%92%B2)

(Japanese Wikipedia) about Kenshou taremaku

http://www.sumo.or.jp/kyokai/goannai/0005/index.html

goo (how to order)

http://www.tanakahataten.co.jp/order_made.html#01

shop where you can make Kensho-taremaku

sorry i can not translate these into English.

[aderechelsea]

few bouts today, 2 among "club members"

Kanai (1-4) lost to fellow clubber Tateishi and renewed his membership for 2 more months ...

Tsunehikari (1-4) lost Iwanaga

Yamamoto (2-3) won today against Daikosei (who was a member of the club untill recently)

Iwanaga (2-3) have beaten Tsunehikari and stays alive in the quest of that elusive 4th win

Tateishi (2-3) won against Kanai and is also on the safe side.

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LADIES AND GENTLEMEN MAY I HAVE YOUR ATTENTION !!!!!!

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we are SORRY but in the same time TREMENDOUSLY HAPPY to announce that an active member of our club will no longer be with us (starting tomorrow) because he made his 4th win in a honbasho, for the first time in 10 attempts.

Our little hero is Omori (4-1)

[Itachi]

Omori was the first to leave and he had the highest career highest rank at Jonidan 130.

[aderechelsea]

and had the highest win percentage among active club members (Kida and Asaamami excluded since they are banzuke-gai)

[Asashosakari]

Since the second dai-persistent rikishi in just three basho has decided to leave us, here's a (probably incomplete) list of active rikishi who started their careers with 10+ make-koshi. The career records are as of Kyushu basho since a) I'm too lazy to update my spreadsheet in the middle of the basho, and b) we'll be able to do a nice year-to-year comparison, provided that everyone isn't already sick of this thread in a year. :-P

Shikona	Heya	Debut	MK	Current Rank	Highest Rank	1st KK		Dai Record		Post-Dai Rec		Overall Rec
						Basho	Rec	Record	Win%	Record	Win%	Record	Win%
Fukukasuga	Kasugayama	Hatsu 1999	21	Jonokuchi 14 West	Jonidan 85	2002.09	4-3	34-103-10	0.248	63-114-5	0.356	97-217-15	0.309
Fukunokuni	Isegahama	Hatsu 2003	15	Jonokuchi 25 East	Jonidan 124	2005.09	4-3	22-79-4	0.218	18-38	0.321	40-117-4	0.255
Tenkaizan	Takadagawa	Natsu 2003	15	Jonidan 91 East	Jonidan 91	2006.01	4-3	34-71	0.324	19-23	0.452	53-94	0.361
Tamashinzan	Kataonami	Natsu 2002	14	Jonokuchi 15 East	Jonidan 84	2004.11	5-2	26-71-1	0.268	35-55-1	0.389	61-126-2	0.326
Kikusegawa	Kise	Haru 2003	12	Jonidan 103 East	Jonidan 89	2005.05	4-3	23-61	0.274	28-42	0.400	51-103	0.331
Isanishiki	Dewanoumi	Haru 2001	11	Jonidan 108 East	Jonidan 77	2003.09	5-2	29-45-3	0.392	59-74-14	0.444	88-119-17	0.425
Daikosei	Asahiyama	Aki 2004	11	Jonokuchi 28 West	Jonidan 114	2006.09	4-3	11-66	0.143	4-10	0.286	15-76	0.165
Koseki	Takanohana	Kyushu 2001	10	Jonokuchi 4 East	Jonidan 92	2003.09	4-3	17-54	0.239	56-84	0.400	73-138	0.346
Matsuminenoyama	Arashio	Haru 2004	10	Jonokuchi 3 West	Jonidan 107	2006.01	4-3	24-46	0.343	17-25	0.405	41-71	0.366

When I assembled these guys, I came across something like eight other rikishi who first achieved KK exactly in their 10th basho; about the same number of rikishi as those who did it in their 7th/8th/9th basho combined. It's probably just statistical noise, but interesting nonetheless...maybe getting 10 MK in a row is something of an "official" badge of dishonor and those rikishi tried really hard to avoid it. ;-) Also, Aki basho seems to be a popular occasion to break long MK streaks.

Edit: Ack, the table came out quite wide...it looks fine for me, but I hope it's not breaking the page layout too badly for anybody else.

Edited January 16, 2007 by Asashosakari

[aderechelsea]

another quick update.

Sugishita lost his 5th bout this basho. he remains winless at 0-5.

the guy that beat him was another winless chap of our list, namely Higashi. He now stands on a 1-5 record.

Daishiryu (2-4) extended his stay on the list by getting today his 17th MK in 17 attempts. He holds "proudly" place no2.

Iwanaga (2-4) lost too and he'll remain with us one more basho at least

Ishii lost again (0-6) and lowers his win percentage more and more....

Iwasa (3-3) missed the chance to get a KK and now he'll have to wait for his last bout to see what future holds for him.

[aderechelsea]

really quick update ....

Yamamoto (2-4) lost today and completed the 9th basho of his career without a KK

Kanai (1-5) lost and extended his MK

"Club Member Supreme" and "Dai-Persistent Warrior" Morikawa (2-4) lost to club member Tateishi (3-3) and is now MK for 22nd time in he 22-basho career.

Wakahizen (1-5 lost to Tsunehikari (2-4)

and finally Kotoyamaguchi (1-5) lost too ...

[Asashosakari]

Almost forgot that I'm supposed to write something here after Day 12. (In a state of confusion...)

Good news #1: As publicized already, after several close calls in previous tournaments Omori has finally achieved his first kachi-koshi. Huzzah!

Good news #2: With his 4th loss today Morikawa has broken the tie between himself and Fukukasuga, and now stands alone as the most persistent active rikishi with 22 consecutive make-koshi. Congrats! (Whistling...) One more loss will also give him a double-digit streak of 2-5 records, which is probably a record in its own right (probably even a record for any type of result, not just 2-5.)

Good news #3 (except for him, perhaps): Seeing as Sugishita is scheduled against Sandanme-quality injury returnee Kinryuzan tomorrow, it's a near-certainty that he will get his 33rd (sort of) consecutive loss and break Morikawa's 32-bout losing streak.

You can't say it's not a noteworthy basho down here in lower Jonokuchi, that's for sure.

In more tentative news - Iwasa has struggled since his 3-1 nakabi record, but still has one more shot at kachi-koshi this basho. Conversely, Tateishi has gone from 1-3 to 3-3 (beating fellow club members Kanai and Morikawa) and suddenly also finds himself contending for that elusive 4th win. It's indeed already the second time he enters his final bout tied at 3-3; he failed to achieve KK in Aki basho which would have allowed him to avoid getting onto the list in the first place. Both guys will attempt to earn their trip back into relative obscurity on Day 14.

[Jonosuke]

Good news #3 (except for him, perhaps): Seeing as Sugishita is scheduled against Sandanme-quality injury returnee Kinryuzan tomorrow, it's a near-certainty that he will get his 33rd (sort of) consecutive loss and break Morikawa's 32-bout losing streak.

Well we were pretty certain back on day 1 that Kinryuzan would somehow manage to come back before the end of basho to avoid Haru basho Mae-zumo whichi usually features around a couple of dozen new recruits.

However he must be in a pretty dire state as far as injury-wise so this is just about as good opportunity as any other for Sugishita to show his mettle and not break Morikawa's futility record.

Since I have never seen Sugishita compete, I really like to know what he is wrong to be this pathetic. Maybe Kinryuzan won't show up and he could get a fusen win.

[Asashosakari]

Since I have never seen Sugishita compete, I really like to know what he is wrong to be this pathetic.

I'm ready to petition Verena for a video of tomorrow's bout. (In a state of confusion...) For the Kinryuzan fans, of course...

[aderechelsea]

while munching my shoe i'll update this .... :-/

Sugishita is officially a record holder. He lost once more and broke Morikawa's record of consecutive losses. He is also boasts of a 1-34 career record with a fusensho as his only win.

Kinryuzan fans across the globe rejoice ...

Ishii also lost against a kyujo returnee and finished winless this basho (0-7). His embarassing winning percentage gets even worse.

Yamamoto was already Mk but manage to save face a bit with a win today and a semi-respectable 3-4 record.