Mark Buckton is ATTACKING Le Monde du Sumo !

[Nikoshoryu]

Hello to you, sumo fans from all around the world.

I don't post very often on this forum.

In fact, I only come once a month, to let you know that a new issue of Le Monde du Sumo or Le Petit Banzuke Illustre is online.

But today, things are going weird, and I MUST know what you all think about this : Mark Buckton and SFM are accusing us of bringing a bad image on sumo and the Nihon Sumo Kyokai, because we gather information and photos on the internet, compile them and offer them for FREE to people who couldn't access these info elsewise.

This issue started at the beginning of this week, when him and Ms Klein contacted me, to let me know that we had been using a picture on which Ms Klein has a copyright, asking for removal and apologies.

Which I did to Ms Klein, sending a copy to Mr Buckton.

(you can check, there's now a red disclaimer on page 28 of MDS#18)

It is true that we never asked newspaper websites and the like that we were "borrowing" pictures from them. But we never ever made any single euro on this ! Our only purpose is to provide non-japanese people with information concerning our common passion : sumo.

And we always asked "private" people for permission to use some of their photos when we wanted some.

But now, Mr Buckton is trying to make us cease all activity, pretending that we are doing bad things for sumo's image, and for the press' image.

Do you all think the same ?

PLEASE, let me know what you think, privately or on this forum, even if you do think like him : if it were to be the case, we would stop everything right now.

Thank you very much in advance.

Nicolas

from Le Monde du Sumo

(www.lemondedusumo.com)

I join a copy of the emails that we sent to each other since last monday... that's completely astonishing !

****

[first message, received on oct 30th]

Nicolas,

It has disappointed me to discover today your continued use of others' sumo related images and photos on Le Monde du Sumo. This regrettable trait though, has now extended to your use of a photo taken by and whose copyright is owned by SFM's Editor - Ms. Barbara Ann Klein.

The photo in question is of the Hungarian rikishi Masutoo standing in the corridor at the Ryogoku Kokugikan and has, I understand been used at least three times - including in the most recent October, 2006 issue of the site you own / run. Please note that the issues using this photograph have been downloaded as hard proof of this usage.

I can only imagine this 'theft' - for that is what it is to take and use the property of another without permission - was achieved intentionally for the same said picture was offered by Ms. Klein for use on a website centering on expat Hungarians (and accompanying an article offered by myself).

Given that LMDS is a privately run online source and not a chat board / forum etc. I thus expect your full and immediate attention on this issue and further expect a full apology in a size equivalent to that of the photograph on your current issue. I anticipate this apology to actually replace the photograph and for you to remove the same image each time it has appeared. I also advise you to apologise to the SFM Editor privately - her contact information can be found on the SFM page.

Be advised that this is the only cease and desist notice you will receive from SFM as we have tried to address the issue of image / photo theft in the past and the discredit you and LMDS do foreign nationals trying to operate professionally and above board in bringing sumo to the non-Japanese reading masses. Unfortunately you have continued along the same vein of operation.

Any further correspondence, should an apology not be forthcoming, will be issued based on the advice of the French Embassy in Tokyo, the relevant French authorities specialising in Internet theft / crime and if need be, similar authorities at the European Union level via the EU office here in Japan.

Finally, the above notwithstanding, I shall also be advising the staff at New Hungarian Voice of your action and any action they deem fit to take will be in addition to and independent of our own resolution or otherwise.

Mark Buckton

Editor-in-Chief

Sumo Fan Magazine

www.sumofanmag.com

****

[reply sent by me to Ms Klein, on nov 1st]

Dear Ms Klein,

please excuse the delay of this message, as I have been away for business since oct 29th.

The following message contains apologies for the unasked use of a photography, for which you own the copyright. The picture (of rikishi Masutoo) will soon be removed from all our issues, and replaced by an apology. Please only allow me a few days to do it, but I promise you it will be done soon.

Anyway, given the importance of this message, I want to be sure not to be misunderstood, and as English is not my native language, I will write the following in French.

-----

Je vous prie, Madame Klein, d'accepter des excuses, en mon nom propre et au nom du magazine "Le Monde du Sumo", parution gratuite et sans aucun but commercial, pour l'utilisation d'une photographie dont vous d

[Gusoyama]

For what its worth:(These are US laws, unfortunately)

Fair Use Laws wiki

Copyright Laws and how they apply to the Internet

[Iwagakki]

Using other people's images without permission is theft. Fair use only applies to public domain images, which does not include images you lifted off other's websites. Any organization that owns the rights to the image could charge you a usage fee. That's how it works in real life. The internet isn't really so different.

[Doitsuyama]

Using other people's images without permission is theft. Fair use only applies to public domain images, which does not include images you lifted off other's websites. Any organization that owns the rights to the image could charge you a usage fee. That's how it works in real life. The internet isn't really so different.

The bold part is simply wrong, and I am astonished to see that from an artist. Here a quotation from Wikipedia:

Because of the deliberate ambiguity of fair use, it is commonly misunderstood. Here are some of the more common misunderstandings with explanations of why they are wrong:

* It's copyrighted, so it can't be fair use. Fair use describes conditions under which copyrighted material may be used without permission. If a work is not copyrighted, it's in the public domain and can legally be used without regard to fair use law.

Fair use only applies to copyrighted material, exactly the other way than you are thinking.

[Iwagakki]

Sorry, yeah, your right. I had it backwards. too early in the morning.

Using other people's images without permission is theft. Fair use only applies to public domain images, which does not include images you lifted off other's websites. Any organization that owns the rights to the image could charge you a usage fee. That's how it works in real life. The internet isn't really so different.

The bold part is simply wrong, and I am astonished to see that from an artist. Here a quotation from Wikipedia:

Because of the deliberate ambiguity of fair use, it is commonly misunderstood. Here are some of the more common misunderstandings with explanations of why they are wrong:

* It's copyrighted, so it can't be fair use. Fair use describes conditions under which copyrighted material may be used without permission. If a work is not copyrighted, it's in the public domain and can legally be used without regard to fair use law.

Fair use only applies to copyrighted material, exactly the other way than you are thinking.

Edited November 3, 2006 by Iwagakki

[Kintamayama]

I for one couldn't care less if anyone used my pictures that are publicly posted, as did happen when Sadogatake were here. I'd actually be more than happy to oblige anyone asking for permission to use them, and probably wouldn't mind running into them on sites that didn't ask..

But I am a private person, and my livelihood does not depend on anything Sumo-related. Hence, I can't judge anyone who is in a position where his livelihood may or may not be jeopardized.

OTOH, there are a few more sumo-related internet magazines, video sites, news sites (cough..cough..) and forums out there that use copyrighted photos, not to mention blatant rip-offs from copyrighted articles.

I fail to see why the French magazine is any different in that respect.

[Gernobono]

I for one couldn't care less if anyone used my pictures that are publicly posted, as did happen when Sadogatake were here. I'd actually be more than happy to oblige anyone asking for permission to use them, and probably wouldn't mind running into them on sites that didn't ask..

But I am a private person, and my livelihood does not depend on anything Sumo-related. Hence, I can't judge anyone who is in a position where his livelihood may or may not be jeopardized.

OTOH, there are a few more sumo-related internet magazines, video sites, news sites (cough..cough..) and forums out there that use copyrighted photos, not to mention blatant rip-offs from copyrighted articles.

I fail to see why the French magazine is any different in that respect.

i've got my own troubles with mark buckton since today, but i am not quite sure if THIS forum would be what it is without posting pictures from different sources and translating japanese news or alike without permission of the photographer/writer

[oyaji]

I'm not a lawyer, and I'm not even an internet (pretend) lawyer, so I can't really say anything about the legalities of this. All I know is that SFM came on way, way too strong. They have guaranteed that I will never again visit their website. I will, however, continue to patronize LMdS. >shrug< That's all I can do.

[Jeronimozo]

What might the following quote from the SFM site want to tell us?

===

Sumo Fan Magazine, like all magazines, could not and would not exist without its readers.

===

[Fay]

What happened?

Le Monde Du Sumo took a picture of SFM, which wasn't correct. They removed it immediately and apologized when they were told to do so. But is it necessary to inform the french, hungarian embassy? Why not the international law-court?

Naive as I am, I always thought we share the same interest in sumo. I've my own pictures and websites and I'm happy when people like them and of course I share them with everyone who has some interest in sumo.

And I always thought there is enough place for more than one sumo magazine.

But sentences like this "sumo is a hard enough world to enter at the best of times without the obstacle of some foreigners making it more difficult by methods that reflect badly on all other non-Japanese" make me sick, it's the same arrogance I can read from some persons all the time, who think they are the only one who know how to behave in a heya, how to sit in the Kokugikan, how to talk to a rikishi - and who believe they are the only one who have or who are allowed to have contacts to the sumo Kyokai ...

Edited November 3, 2006 by Fay

[Itachiyama]

But sentences like this "sumo is a hard enough world to enter at the best of times without the obstacle of some foreigners making it more difficult by methods that reflect badly on all other non-Japanese" make me sick, it's the same arrogance I can read from some persons all the time, who think they are the only one who know how to behave in a heya, how to sit in the Kokugikan, how to talk to a rikishi - and who believe they are the only one who have or who are allowed to have contacts to the sumo Kyokai ...

True words.

(Blushing...) :-S (Applauding...) (Applauding...)

Just call it bullying around! (Protesting...)

[Mark Buckton]

You know, I saw this hoohah (sp?) on the SF / SML as I was sat in a hospital waiting room on Saturday morning Japan time.

After giving it all some thought it was evident to myself that the sane voices respecting the proper way to do things - especially regarding the property of others - shone through or, in the case of several prominent members you would expect to post were noticeable by their absence.

Of course there is no short, easy way to resolve this problem of LMDS photo usage or, indeed to start looking at the methodology of Nicholas at self justification through publicity gained in showing the sumo following world selected (not all) private emails exchanged on a subject so I won't really try. To do so would only add to the feeding frenzy enjoyed by those inclined to offer incomplete opinions on the business of others.

I will say that SFM under my leadership will only ever operate legally and above board. We will only ever respect the intellectual rights, property rights and related copyright laws of the Japanese and international communities.

We have operated thus with the Nihon Sumo Kyokai, with news sites, private homepages and individuals connected to sumo at every level - around the world - and this will never change.

If this method of operation makes me naive that would be a badge I wear with pride.

If, at this time, any SFers / SMLers believe this modus operandi to be strange and believe we should operate differently or condone others who behave illegally, I respect their opinions.

I do, however ask them to respect the fact that as Ed-in-Chief of Sumo Fan Magazine and as a contributing (sumo and other Japan related subjects) writer to five publications in Japan and elsewhere I will follow and protect the rules of the society in which I live and work.

I make no apologies for the strength and vigor with which I protect what is deemed legally and morally proper by that society.

Would any of you, were a thief pleading poverty as justification for his actions, sat on your doorstep?

[Dale]

Would any of you, were a thief pleading poverty as justification for his actions, sat on your doorstep?

I don't understand what this means, nor how it might apply,

should it have any meaning.

Your editor, who is a saint, BTW, seems to have settled this

in a reasonable and human way. Maybe you should just let

the issue go, as perhaps should everybody else.

Getting ready to rent the basement of the Kokugikan for

an afternoon,

Dale

[nabudetoulouse]

I do, however ask them to respect the fact that as Ed-in-Chief of Sumo Fan Magazine and as a contributing (sumo and other Japan related subjects) writer to five publications in Japan and elsewhere I will follow and protect the rules of the society in which I live and work.

I make no apologies for the strength and vigor with which I protect what is deemed legally and morally proper by that society.

Would any of you, were a thief pleading poverty as justification for his actions, sat on your doorstep?

The world of the sumo is free and it is made by the voluntary ones!!!!!

You are a professional journalist and you are used for yourselves of voluntary to make your publicity and in more you speak for them.

For example:

Mark Buckton is involved in sumo at various levels. As Editor-in-Chief of Sumo Fan Magazine he runs the only multi-lingual site on sumo on the net today. Also sumo columnist for The Japan Times Online, much of his time is now taken up by sumo in one way or another. Another sumo column in Eye-Ai (Japanese culture magazine available in Hawaii and Japan) and work as a contributor on sumo to various publications in Japan keep him at the sharp end of the sport so living in Tokyo is by far the best place to be to achieve all of the above. (http://www.uk-sumo.com/staff.php)

He is often in and around Ryogoku and eastern Tokyo researching articles on sumo for The Japan Times Online, where he is sumo columnist and Sumo Fan Magazine where he is Editor-in-Chief. (http://superengland.com/sport/content/view/639/38/)

Mark Buckton, a Tokyo-based freelancing journalist contributes his articles to a number of world's noted newspapers including The Seoul Times. (http://jejutimes.net/JT/?url=/JT/db/read.php?idx=141)

I have some questions:

By the fan for the fans, how much will cost the sumofanmag?

Does the SFM want to develop information on the sumo or to have only the monopoly of information on the sumo by drawing aside the MDS and el Bolet

[Fujisan]

After giving it all some thought it was evident to myself that the sane voices respecting the proper way to do things - especially regarding the property of others - shone through or, in the case of several prominent members you would expect to post were noticeable by their absence.

For me I'm here to have fun and when things like this blow up and it doesn't affect me directly I would rather leave the parties involved to sort out their issues for themselves. (Nodding yes...)

And I personally dont think a public forum is the place for posting peoples emails to score points against the sender (Shaking head...)

[Jejima]

After giving it all some thought it was evident to myself that the sane voices respecting the proper way to do things - especially regarding the property of others - shone through or, in the case of several prominent members you would expect to post were noticeable by their absence.

I wouldn't call myself prominent, but maybe I am insane.

I had not responded earlier because I greatly respect Mark and what he has done for the SFM (amongst other sumo related things), which is truly a great achievement.

But, if my non-voice is seen as tacitly agreeing with what has happened, then I feel I need to speak up a little.

I believe that Nicolas and Le Monde du Sumo are basically on the same side as Mark and SFM. Both are providing a service to sumo fans for no personal gain.

No matter what the issues are regarding legality, potential loss of income etc, I would have hoped that as sumo fans with basically the same aim, things could have / should have been settled like this....

(Shaking head...) and not like this (Arguing...)

I am hoping that even at this late stage, things can be worked out amicably (I would suggest following the lead of Barabara) between all involved.

I am hoping that LMdS will select its pictures a little more carefully in the future. I am also hoping that SFM will turn a blind eye to any minor perceived error that LMdS may do in the future, that does not directly effect SFM.

To be honest, I think this method of working together might achieve better results in the long run, as no matter how sincere the intentions are of taking this case to higher levels - eg embassies etc, I have a feeling that this matter may not be viewed as being of much importance to those outside of the foreign language sumo community - nor is it anywhere near the greatest threat to infringement of copyright out there on the Internet.

Let's say that LMdS completely ignores SFM (with the exception that they no longer use pictures whose copyright belong to SFM), and SFM decides to take matters further regarding the other pictures that LMdS are using with questionable copyright status.....

To take that route would probably involve a lot of time, money etc on the part of SFM, without being 100% sure what the outcome would be - especially as the case would cross international borders, and things always get a bit murky when the Internet is involved. Even if SFM were to win the case after years of prosecution, and goodness knows how much money, the worst that LMdS could expect to get is a token slap on the wrist, and a request not to publish such photos in future editions.

However, by this stage, the readership of both magazines would probably become divided with sides being taken (something that already seems to be happening, even at this early stage), and an unwanted schism would occur across the foreign sumo fan community. We are far too small to let that happen. (Nodding yes...)

So, please, please guys find a way to work together (Hugging...).

Edit Merely (Nodding yes...) replaced :-) in initial version.

Edited November 4, 2006 by Jejima

[furanohana]

And I personally dont think a public forum is the place for posting peoples emails to score points against the sender (Shaking head...)

So, please, please guys find a way to work together (Nodding yes...).

All that is what we, at LMDS, tried to do. This is not the first time such a problem arises with SFM (in fact, with Mark Buckton), and we never said anything loudly. We this problem came in a few days ago, all the MDS team decided to make no public response, as we felt this was a stupid thing to do.

But this time, things went far, far away... I never thought a true sumo fan would write such things to another true sumo fans, as Mark Buckton did. This is only when he decided to make things public (saying that he'll contact embassies, no matter that we made what he wanted us to do), that we felt that the online sumo community had to be informed. And we had to too if somebody cared, or if we should better stop everything and let LMDS die. Running something like LMDS for free on our spare time is sometimes very difficult, and ho could we continue to do it if the only response is law suits ?

So please, don't think that LMDS has anything against SFM : we love their work. We, as sumo fans, need their work. But sometimes, enough is enough. I don't think that the fact that we don't intend to become a paying magazine one day means that we have to disapear...

Now, I go back to lurking mode, and I sure hope I won't ever have to talk about that again. Now is the most painful moment I ever had since I follow sumo, and it make me wants to reconsider what I do for sumo : is it really worth it, if it's the way I'm rewarded ?

[Toonoryu]

Thanks Jejima for those words of wisdom.

What you said about finding a way to work together already exists in a way, as i am a member of the LMDS team, but also the translator for the French version of SFM. You can all imagine how i felt when this issue started to explode. Personnaly, i'm involved in all this solely because of passion, and only passion can drive me to do such an amount of work (have a look at the volume of texts to translate in SFM and you'll understand what i mean by 'amount of work'). If things were to get worse, i would be out of this immediately. But i still hope that it can be settled peacefully.

On the copyright matters, my personnal view is that images of websites such as SFM who clearly ban any other use for their own motives shouldn't be used (and in this respect we indeed made a mistake), but i also think that images from online papers can be, as they are in many other places including this forum. I am fully aware that we're not fully in compliance with regards to legal matters here, but just try to imagine a sumo life without any photo or video to enjoy... that would be sad, right ? and what harm is done to those agencies, and sumo ? zip...

The prensent message is of course my personnal view and certainly not that of any web magazine i belong to (SFM and LMDS)

Toonoryu

[ilovesumo]

I don't say anything to the main question here, just that it is BULLSHIT to fight. Hontou!

The cousin of my grandma died this week, he made the whole family fight cause of his lies (he was an unhappy man and couldn't see the family to be happy) but now he is dead. Nobody can ever talk to him again nor take his hand and search for the reason of his behaviour. My parents won't even go to the funeral because he hurted them so much. I would go, because he was part of my family, doesn't matter what he did and it was worse then this Pillepalle here, but I am in Japan and can't go home so easy...think about that word-FAMILY. In all those years some of the guys here became "family members" to me, cause I read or chat with them often and we all have one topic to talk about whatever happens. For that topic, Sumo, the "thing" I love most in this world, we all should stand together like a real family. We are so few people. The real foreign fans and the few great japanese people (to name Joe Kuroda (Shaking head...) ) helping us to understand the japanese feelings about Sumo, about japanese pride etc, should stand together. Sure I understand that all the work on the mag brings up the wish to get money for it- like each kind of work, and people need money to live too. The problem is the not existing market. We few hundred foreign fans can't be called a market. Bring SFM out in japanese for the japanese fans- but the market won't be much bigger......understand?...Or let's write a book together.... Make it professional and hope for a sponsor, advertising on it- brings a little money but if you put all your love for Sumo in it, maybe some okane ga aru sumolover will be nice.

Just love it like you did before in all those years. You all do, and we all know that.

I think "Sumo World" showed there is no real market for an international Sumomag. And to agree with Jejima (if I got you right) who needs something printed when everything is more easy and quick online. I get my Sumonews from Moti. This Rikishi did this or that- so it was in all these years. And I get my lessons by PM, asking questions to the people with more knowledge. That is great, that is interactive- that is internet. Free. Human to human(s). So please, peace! There is no need to fight. NO need!

Edited November 4, 2006 by ilovesumo

[Otokonoyama]

I feel private correspondence should never be posted in a public venue unless agreed upon by both parties. It seems worse in this case, in that Mark & the LMDS folks have been discussing the use of such photos for many, many months. What was posted was just the end of a very long discussion between both parties. Kind of like walking into the end of a heated discussion. We all have little idea what was talked about before this latest exchange, and how, why, etc. things escalated to this point. It would be easier for us all to understand the situation a little more clearly if we had seen the emails from the very beginning. But, as they were private exchanges, we shouldn't be seeing any whatsoever. It would seem Nikoshoryu is compounding a serious mistake with another.

[Nikoshoryu]

Hi,

Thank you for all for exressing your thoughts.

And to all of you saying that I shouldn't have published private correspondance, of course, I agree.

But when you get so many exagerate threats at the same time, you go over it once, twice, but then you can't stand it anymore.

Now, I offer all my apologies to all of you who got shocked, bored or whatever by this thread.

But it helped me get quite a few very interesting answers and explanations.

And at last, I have to clarify one thing : Ms Barbara Ann Klein sent me a separate email at the beginning, at the same time as Mr Buckton's, to inform me that she wanted the Masutoo photo to be removed.

After my reply to her, with apologies and notification that I removed the picture, she sent me a very polite message, where she told me that due to my gracious response, the case was closed for her.

In other words, she had nothing to do with my further correspondance with Mr Buckton, as some of you may have misunderstood.

I am sorry for the harm it may have caused to her, and for all who may have got hurt because of this unclear situation.