Tokitenku you fool .....

[aderechelsea]

i am not sure if it was a matta from Chiyo but he should llearn that a bout stops ONLY if the gyoji says "matta matta" .... (Enjoyable TV program...)

anyway ... nice "fight" ... something out of the ordinary.

[Otokonoyama]

Looked like maybe he got poked in the eye by one of Taikai's eary thrusts...took the fight right out of him.

[Xris]

When you look at the replay (http://www.banzuke.com/~movies/aki2006/day2/2006_09_02_tokiten_chiyotai.wmv) you see that Tokitenku was half ko by Taikai initial charge and indeed suffered from something that looks like a poke in the eye.

[ilovesumo]

You could say the crowd in the Kokugikan was surprized + angry. No boos, but many "matta" "matta?"

No new henka discussion please, but it looked somehow strange...

[Shimpu]

There was no matta. They both hit the clay before tachi-ai. Probably Tenku didn't realize he is still inside dohyo (Enjoyable TV program...)

Edited September 11, 2006 by Shimpu

[Ossetian Yokozuna]

"Probably Tenku didn't realize he is still inside dohyo".

He have nothing realized absolutely, becouse KO-ed TAIKAIs head.

And, nobodys can to continue the boot after the same strike.

[Shimpu]

He have nothing realized absolutely, becouse KO-ed TAIKAIs head.

I haven't noticed this head. I was focused on matta and Chiyo's palms but now I can clearly see that he was hit by Taikai's head. (Enjoyable TV program...)

[Guest Ganryu]

[Hello all, first-time poster here... (Enjoyable TV program...) ]

Yeah, they were both clearly on the dohyo, ready to go. Toki appeared to be asleep at the switch, Chiyo was in good enough form to do his classic explosive tachiai, and Toki got clocked. It looked more like Chiyo's head to Toki's jaw to me too, but he was favoring one of his eyes after the bout. Maybe his whole face got rocked, he looked miserable.

[Kotoku]

He hadn't put both hands on the clay. It was a matta, pure and simple.

[SalParadise]

It ain't that simple. Watch the rikishi. Quite often both hands aren't put on the dohyo before they start. Sometimes even one hand doesn't get put on the dohyo before they start. Regardless, unless the gyoji calls a matta, it ain't a matta, no matter how many hands were or weren't touching.

[yamaneko]

Yeah, the hakuho -kisenosato on the first day was pretty terrible...hakuho had one fist like 2 feet off the ground, not even moving when they started that bout..

[Guest Ganryu]

Yeah, the system is sort of confusing, but I think that nebulousness is precisely why the gyoji arbitrates it. He's right there on the ground (as it were) and can fairly well differentiate between cheap/false starts and simply drawing one's gun quicker.

Besides, if the guy on the other end really is too jumpety, that's what hataki-komi is for. Fight borderline-cheapness with more-than-borderline cheapness (I am not worthy...)

[kaiguma]

Both opponents with both fists down is a strictly Amasumo rule. There is no evidence whatsoever that this rule is even loosely followed in modern Ozumo. I'm sure if a tachiai occured with neither opponent touching down this would be an automatic matta call, but how often has anyone seen this? My guess is . . . never.

Matta is simply defined as: One rikishi starts before both have 'synced up' the tachi-ai. Gyoji have excellent hearing and vision - they're even tested on it to be admitted as trainees. A veteran makuuchi gyoji hears it when one of the rikishi sneaks in a silent fart. If rikishi A puts ONE fist on the ground, this is usually a signal he is ready and rikishi B can feel free to clock him in the head if he wants too, whether or not B's fists ever touch the ground. A downward motion of the fist will do - hopefully one knuckle might graze the clay.

In an unclear case, the gyoji is using his keen ring sense to deteremine whether the two were 'breathing together' when A charged suddenly into B. For example, trawling through Dale's archives you can find numerous matta bouts where: Kaio puts a solid fist down first but is still in a full squat, his opponent (Kakizoe comes to mind) blasts into him immediately, before Kaio has leaned forward, gyoji calls matta. In this example both opponents were touching the ground at the charge. Kaio's fist on the ground would normally signal that he is ready but the gyoji decides that the rest of his body anguage did not.

In the case where A touches, B touches, and then A slams into B, it is almost impossible to call a matta. B has no excuse for not being ready. With Tokitenku v Chiyotaikai day 2, it was admittedly an unclear case, and you can see the gyoji going, "Oh crap I didn't even have a chance to say 'matta' and now it's over. Well, tenku had his fist down already, and I think he meant it . . . I must look like a dumbass just standing here, so . . . gunbai!"

Tenku v Chiyo blow-by: Tenku touches, Chiyo touches, split second hesitation, Chiyo charges, Tenku barely manages to flex his calf muscles (intent to move was there your honor - watch it in slow motion on your media player), Chiyo bonks the ever-living crap out of Tenku's face with his hand and then his forehead, Tenku reels, tries to regain his balance, but can't even see because he actually thinks his entire face has been shattered and he's really worried that when he opens his eyes the pieces will fall all over the dohyo, Chiyo delivers the final push to an upright broken-faced zombie. In slo-mo you can also tell that from the moment he is hit until he steps back over the bales, Tokitenku tries once to open his eyes but it hurts so badly (or he sees nothing but pure white light) that he closes them immediately.

As far as fingered eye theory goes, first Chiyo's right hand smacks Tenku's left cheek-eye area, then his head hits the right jaw-cheek area. His left hand doesn't go near the right side of Tenku's face, but stays down on the chest. As he sits down ring-side, Tonkitenku is actaully favoring the left eye, which was allegedly poked. It wasn't a fingered eye, but shattered-face-syndrome.

(I am not worthy...) I rest my case your honor.

[Kotoku]

The was a big push in the early 90s to get some order at the tachiai, with dire threats of fines and etc by the powers that be. Takanohana had a terrible time.

In earlier days, even in late Showa, many matches started with the guys just lunging at each other and screw the tachiai.

The main point was to sync up with your opponent. But in the case of yesterday's match, I thought it was a matta, but YMMV and no problem.

[aderechelsea]

Tokitenku said himself that Chiyotaikai's head hit him in the face and he lost it for a moment there and thought he stepped outside the ring Next thing he realized was Chiyo coming after him for another push.

So no matta, no "foolishness" from his part and life goes on ....