Kashunowaka Posted November 22, 2003 Posted November 22, 2003 Time for the traditional day 14 Guess The Sansho! Shukun-sho is usually quite easy to guess, but who can name the gino-sho winner? I take the easy road in my guess ... Shukun-sho: Tochinonada Gino-sho: none Kanto-sho: Hokutoriki, Dejima
Asashosakari Posted November 22, 2003 Posted November 22, 2003 (edited) Time for the traditional day 14 Guess The Sansho! Shukun-sho is usually quite easy to guess, but who can name the gino-sho winner? I take the easy road in my guess ...Shukun-sho: Tochinonada Gino-sho: none Kanto-sho: Hokutoriki, Dejima I largely agree, although I think Hokutoriki should only get the kanto-sho if he posts an 11th win tomorrow, as his list of opponents this basho wasn't anything to write home about. (Only 5 were ranked higher than he is, 9 were ranked lower.) Perhaps Tamanoshima for the gino-sho, or for the kanto-sho if Hokutoriki doesn't get it? His kachi-koshi (possibly double-digit!) definitely ranks as a pleasant surprise for me this basho. I don't really see anybody else that might deserve the gino-sho... Edited November 22, 2003 by Asashosakari
Yoavoshimaru Posted November 22, 2003 Posted November 22, 2003 I have never tried to get sansho winners before, as I don't fully understand the rationale for the awards. How do you go about guessing?
Zenjimoto Posted November 22, 2003 Posted November 22, 2003 (edited) Dejima MAY actually get the Gino-sho, as his technique this basho was rather good. IIRC, his wins were all moving forward, and although he pretty much used only one trick, he executed that one with great class. Add 11 wins, and I think he would be a worthy Gino-sho winner. If it were me, I'd also give him a Kanto-sho to top it off, ESPECIALLY if he gets 12-3 Jun-Yusho Tochinonada is probably a clear Shukun-sho, although it would be nice if he wins 9, but I guess he'll get it no matter what. Cheers Zenjimoto Edited November 22, 2003 by Zenjimoto
Zenjimoto Posted November 22, 2003 Posted November 22, 2003 (edited) I have never tried to get sansho winners before, as I don't fully understand the rationale for the awards. How do you go about guessing? Shukun-sho usually goes to a KK guy who beats Yokozuna and the winner of that tournament, especially if the Yusho comes at 14-1. Nada beat both Yokozuna. If Asa wins Yusho, there will be no doubt at all. Often this prize is announced to be given to a certain man IF another they beat previously ends up winning the yusho. So then, the Shukun-sho candidate will actually have to wait and pull for the other guy to win :-) Kanto-sho usually goes to guys who are 10-5 or better and showed good spirit. Shin-nyumakus usually ALWAYS get Kanto-sho if they manage 10-5 Gino-sho is the hardest to predict, but, see above... often times there is a rikishi that stands out by winning bouts in forward style, or using otherwise "good sumo" that might catch the eyes of the NSK people, and be rewarded... Sometimes this is announced to go to someone IF they win on the last day. Pressure! :-) Cheers Z. Edited November 22, 2003 by Zenjimoto
Kashunowaka Posted November 22, 2003 Author Posted November 22, 2003 I have never tried to get sansho winners before, as I don't fully understand the rationale for the awards. How do you go about guessing? I am not sure I understand the criteria either, but anyway ... There are two criteria that I do know about, and that is 1) sansho can only be awarded to sekiwake and below 2) kachi-koshi is a prerequisite Shukun-sho is the prize for "Outstanding Performance". Normally you get that for beating the yokozuna. Beating two or more yokozuna is of course even better, and is doesn't hurt to knock off an ozeki or two, or the yusho winner. The shukun-sho is awarded when there are one or more suitable candidates, otherwise not. Since Musashimaru was a sitting duck this basho, beating him only would probably not be enough. But Nada also beat Asashoryu (and Kaio), so I would think that he has the shukun-sho in the bag. The other two prizes are the "Technique Prize" (gino-sho) and the "Fighting Spirit Prize" (kanto-sho). The gino-sho is considered to be more prestigious. It is not always awarded, whereas the kanto-sho usually is. As Zenjimoto points out, Dejima may certainly get the gino-sho (he has won it several times before). A rikishi doesn't have to be technical department store Mainoumi to get the gino-sho; the important thing is to "do your own sumo", if I understand correctly. Iwakiyama last basho was able to use his strength in oshi-zumo against the opponents. The recipient of kanto-sho is a rikishi who has done clearly better than expected. To find likely candidates for both the kanto-sho and the gino-sho, start looking among those with double digits. Makuuchi debutants seem to have a rather high chance of getting the kanto-sho if they do well in their first basho.
Yubiquitoyama Posted November 22, 2003 Posted November 22, 2003 (edited) Kanto-sho usually goes to guys who are 10-5 or better and showed good spirit. Shin-nyumakus usually ALWAYS get Kanto-sho if they manage 10-5 I know this is basically the criteria, but I'd just like to add that, although it's usually true, a rikishi does not HAVE to win 10 wins to get the kanto-sho. If he stands out against sufficiently good opposition but is not obviously eligible for any of the other sansho, even a 9-6 and in rare cases an 8-7 rikishi can get it. I believe I have read there is actually an understanding between the Kyokai and those deciding the sansho-awards that shinnyumaku with at least 10 wins ALWAYS get a kanto-sho, without exception (I know you basically wrote that, but I got a bit confused by the word combination "usually always" :-) ). EDIT: I don't know when such a rule is supposed to have started, but the last shinnyumaku with at least 10 wins NOT to get at least a kanto-sho, was Kitaseumi in 1972.03. After that (1973.05 to today), there have been fourteen 10-5, nine 11-4 and one 12-3 shinnyumaku, all of whom have gotten at least a Kanto-sho. Of those doing worse than that (quite a few), the only shinnyumaku sansho-winners were Kirishima (8-7, Kanto-sho, 1984.07 at M12w), Kitakachidoki (9-6, Kanto-sho, 1989.01 at M12e), Miyabiyama (9-6, Kanto-sho, 1999.03 at M07e) and Mainoumi (8-7, Gino-sho, 1991.09 at M12w). Returnees on the other hand have almost never been granted a sansho with only a 10-5 during the same period. Edited November 22, 2003 by Yubiquitoyama
Kashunowaka Posted November 22, 2003 Author Posted November 22, 2003 And one more thing - if you are a very popular rikishi, your chances of getting a sansho increase considerably. And vice versa: if you are big, ugly and have fluttering sideburns, no way you'll get a sansho. :-)
Naifuzan Posted November 22, 2003 Posted November 22, 2003 And one more thing - if you are a very popular rikishi, your chances of getting a sansho increase considerably. And vice versa: if you are big, ugly and have fluttering sideburns, no way you'll get a sansho. :-) Takanotsuru got one not that long ago tho :-)
Yoavoshimaru Posted November 22, 2003 Posted November 22, 2003 Beating two or more yokozuna is of course even better Has anyone ever beaten three yokozuna in one basho???? :-) :-) Thank you for the explanations everyone. It seems like a Guess The Sansho game might actually be slightly easier than Guess The Banzuke :-)
Yubiquitoyama Posted November 22, 2003 Posted November 22, 2003 (edited) Has anyone ever beaten three yokozuna in one basho???? :-) :-) Yes: Most kinboshi in one basho Wakanohana_1 1953.01 (8-7, M03w, no sansho) Asashio_4 1955.01 (8-7, M01e, Shukun-sho) Tochiakagi 1979.11 (10-5, M01w, Shukun-sho) Onokuni 1983.11 (10-5, M03e, Shkunu-sho) There are undoubtedly more who beat three yokozuna, but ranked higher themselves, so as not to get a kinboshi. I don't have easily access to such data though... Edited November 22, 2003 by Yubiquitoyama
Yoavoshimaru Posted November 22, 2003 Posted November 22, 2003 Most kinboshi in one bashoWakanohana_1 1953.01 (8-7, M03w, no sansho) Asashio_4 1955.01 (8-7, M01e, Shukun-sho) Tochiakagi 1979.11 (10-5, M01w, Shukun-sho) Onokuni 1983.11 (10-5, M03e, Shkunu-sho) So the above four rikishi got three kinboshi in one basho? Has anyone ever gotten more than three? :-) :-)
Kashunowaka Posted November 22, 2003 Author Posted November 22, 2003 And one more thing - if you are a very popular rikishi, your chances of getting a sansho increase considerably. And vice versa: if you are big, ugly and have fluttering sideburns, no way you'll get a sansho. :-) Takanotsuru got one not that long ago tho :-) Are you sure? No Takanotsuru sansho on this page. I really think Toki is ripe for a sansho. Toki for gino-sho! :-)
Asashosakari Posted November 22, 2003 Posted November 22, 2003 Takanotsuru got one not that long ago tho :-) Are you sure? No Takanotsuru sansho on this page. Takanotsuru would likely have got the kanto-sho in Hatsu 2003, his shin-nyumaku basho, but alas, he lost his senshuraku bout and finished 9-6.
Naifuzan Posted November 22, 2003 Posted November 22, 2003 Takanotsuru would likely have got the kanto-sho in Hatsu 2003, his shin-nyumaku basho, but alas, he lost his senshuraku bout and finished 9-6. Yes, that's right. I got it a bit mixed up. It was Kasugao who got it at 10-5.
Kashunowaka Posted November 23, 2003 Author Posted November 23, 2003 Both Tochinonada and Tosanoumi got the shukun-sho. Tosanoumi was a little unexpected to me, but congratulations to a good choice from the jury. With the best result from those below ozeki, Tosanoumi deserved to get a sansho, and probably got the shukun-sho for beating yusho winner Tochiazuma, not for sending Musashimaru into intai. I was right about the gino-sho: it was not awarded this time. Both Dejima and Hokutoriki lost on senshuraku, so Tamanoshima was another good choice - the obvious choice, actually - for a sansho. A third kanto-sho for him. (Holiday feeling...)
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