basho prospects without Asa

[Chisaiyama]

Everyone keeps mentioning Kotooshu as the most likelly benefactor of Asa's suspension. I on the other hand believe that the Kyokai sees this as a perfect opportunity for a Japanese Yokozuna to surface. We have a brand new Ozeki who has been red hot now for 3 tournaments in a row. We know he can beat Hakuho and the other Ozeki and with the flotsam and jetsam currently in the lower sanyaku and jo'i-jin I think that 2 yushos or at least 1 yusho and a yusho equivalent might not be out of the question at all. Come Hatsu '08 we might just have 3 Yokozuna on the banzuke: Asashoryu, Hakuho and Kotomitsuki/Kotozakura. Has anyone heard if he plans to change his shikona to take advantage of the moto-yokozunas offer?

[Coo-cook]

Everyone keeps mentioning Kotooshu as the most likelly benefactor of Asa's suspension. I on the other hand believe that the Kyokai sees this as a perfect opportunity for a Japanese Yokozuna to surface. We have a brand new Ozeki who has been red hot now for 3 tournaments in a row. We know he can beat Hakuho and the other Ozeki and with the flotsam and jetsam currently in the lower sanyaku and jo'i-jin I think that 2 yushos or at least 1 yusho and a yusho equivalent might not be out of the question at all. Come Hatsu '08 we might just have 3 Yokozuna on the banzuke: Asashoryu, Hakuho and Kotomitsuki/Kotozakura. Has anyone heard if he plans to change his shikona to take advantage of the moto-yokozunas offer?

What's with mental pressure comes along ?

[Kotonosato]

I on the other hand believe that the Kyokai sees this as a perfect opportunity for a Japanese Yokozuna to surface.

I think the last thing on the Kyokai's collective mind was yokozuna promotion.

Anyway, even though Kotomitsuki can beat most opponents right now, there is no way his mental game will allow him to win two more yusho this year. Not with Hakuho handling the pressure so well.

[Bealzbob]

Wow, there's a lot of long posts in this thread :)

I'll just say that as an Asashoryu fan I agree that he deserved to be punished for his latest stupid antics and have said so all along. I don't know the history of this type of punishment, only that it is very rare, so I can't and wont comment on the severity of the punishment. I only hope that he can learn from this and start to really behave outside the dohyo like a true yokozuna, although part of me even doubts that.

But I will say that, despite agreeing with the punishment, for me the next 2 basho have been totally de-valued to the point where I couldn't care who wins them, they will be token yusho. In reality Hakuho has no worthy opponent and should rack up 2 further yusho.

It's a strange time, all in all.

[Asojima]

But I will say that, despite agreeing with the punishment, for me the next 2 basho have been totally de-valued to the point where I couldn't care who wins them, they will be token yusho. In reality Hakuho has no worthy opponent and should rack up 2 further yusho.

It's a strange time, all in all.

I am seeing a lot of statements like this. It will, in fact, be a bit strange, and, for me, exciting. For Aki, we will have a gutless meatgrinder, Mickey poised, Hakuho out to prove himself, some strong rikishi sitting in lower maku ready to wreak a little havoc and no Asa to run away with the yusho. I am having a problem trying to figure out why there are fans who say they are going to sit out a potentially exciting basho.

[Bealzbob]

But I will say that, despite agreeing with the punishment, for me the next 2 basho have been totally de-valued to the point where I couldn't care who wins them, they will be token yusho. In reality Hakuho has no worthy opponent and should rack up 2 further yusho.

It's a strange time, all in all.

I am seeing a lot of statements like this. It will, in fact, be a bit strange, and, for me, exciting. For Aki, we will have a gutless meatgrinder, Mickey poised, Hakuho out to prove himself, some strong rikishi sitting in lower maku ready to wreak a little havoc and no Asa to run away with the yusho. I am having a problem trying to figure out why there are fans who say they are going to sit out a potentially exciting basho.

Personally it is because of the knowledge that the probable winner (given recent stats) is on the sidelines. I know my interest will probably return closer to the time, and emotions are running high for everyone at the moment. I will still think the winner got it handed to him on a plate, but I will in reality still take an interest and cheer on my other favourites.

I'll be looking for Homasho to really start to push for a regular sanyaku rank now, and see if Kisenosato has come to terms with being a regular in the joi-jin. I'll be looking forward to seeing Goeido & Wakanoho in makuuchi. So if anything my interests will not have waned, they will just be switched to things other than the now-less-important yusho race.

[nirumaruyama]

Kotomitsuki has been brilliant over the last few basho but I think he will be more concerned about getting kachi koshi in his first basho as ozeki. It's another step up mentally to get to yokozuna, look at Kaio, Tochiazuma and Chiyotaikai. All of them won yusho before Asashoryu was yokozuna and while Takanohana was crocked yet they never made it to yokozuna. Maybe he will yusho but others have just as strong a chance. Maybe Asashoryu's absence will increase pressure in Kotooshu's head as he may feel he ought to take this opportunity to win a yusho.

I think Kintamayama has struck a very positive note on this ban and Asashoryu will take advantage to relax, get fit and come back stronger. Let's hope he doesn't get ring rusty though.

[Bealzbob]

It's strange to me that many people not only seem to have Asashoryu as the favourite for Aki and Kyushu but think whomever wins wouldn't be champion were he present.

This isn't 2004 or 2005. Asashoryu's era of complete dominance is over. Since last summer Hakuho has been the rising force and I personally feel this year that he has overtaken Asashoryu as the yusho favourite for most basho. The post promotion slump was expected. Asashoryu as well would still have the injury problems if he entered. I'm not writing him off by any means but I would still expect Hakuho to win the next two tournaments regardless. In that sense if someone else does take the Emperor's Cup they would have beaten the (currently) strongest rikishi to the title (in my opinion).

With the favourite out of the running (lets face it, the bookies would have him as favourite) it is only natural for people to place question marks upon the validity of the eventual winner. We will never know either way, but it is natural to - in my case - simply look elsewhere for my Aki enjoyment now. FWIW, IMO some of Hakuho's recent success has been down to 'shoryu's injury, so with Asa on the mend it is by no means definite which of them would have won Aki & Kyushu - but with one of them out I could hazard a guess who will win both - comfortably.

[Asashosakari]

I'll be looking for Homasho to really start to push for a regular sanyaku rank now, and see if Kisenosato has come to terms with being a regular in the joi-jin. I'll be looking forward to seeing Goeido & Wakanoho in makuuchi. So if anything my interests will not have waned, they will just be switched to things other than the now-less-important yusho race.

The funny thing is, I'm fairly sure there is a number of us who feel exactly the opposite way. I for one would consider the next two yusho races more interesting (and by extension, more important for me personally) than any from Asashoryu's dominant 2004-06 years where I mostly tuned out emotionally before each day's musubi-no-ichiban...

I still expect Hakuho to take both yusho fairly easily, though...but the chance that that's not what is going to happen is still greater than it was with Asashoryu from '04 to '06.

Edited August 3, 2007 by Asashosakari

[Raishu]

But I will say that, despite agreeing with the punishment, for me the next 2 basho have been totally de-valued to the point where I couldn't care who wins them, they will be token yusho. In reality Hakuho has no worthy opponent and should rack up 2 further yusho.

It's a strange time, all in all.

I am seeing a lot of statements like this. It will, in fact, be a bit strange, and, for me, exciting. For Aki, we will have a gutless meatgrinder, Mickey poised, Hakuho out to prove himself, some strong rikishi sitting in lower maku ready to wreak a little havoc and no Asa to run away with the yusho. I am having a problem trying to figure out why there are fans who say they are going to sit out a potentially exciting basho.

I definitely agree to your statement. Well said Asojima.

Everybody who says that the winner of a tourament, in which Asashoryu does not compete, is not a TRUE winner, should ask himself if he is still going to watch sumo after his retirement in a few years.

Don't get me wrong. I admire Asashoryu for his sumo skills and fighting spirit.

But in my opinion, it is very impolite towards the other rikishi to deny them having the ability to create an interesting basho with many great bouts.

Sumo is sumo, and shouln't be reduced to only one person.

[Bealzbob]

I still expect Hakuho to take both yusho fairly easily, though...but the chance that that's not what is going to happen is still greater than it was with Asashoryu from '04 to '06.

That I agree with, but at least from '04 to '06 all the bashos had their full complement, injuries notwithstanding.

[nirumaruyama]

I think what's important and maybe not mentioned so far is the psychological impact on the other rikishii.

Suddenly they know that the toughest yokozuna is definitely out for 2 basho and that will give them a lift, maybe open their eyes to possibilities of doing well and competing without the fear of meeting Asashoryu. Asa has had a huge impression on sumo in recent years and like school kids when the teacher is out sick, the other rikishi might feel free to win.

I hope this makes sense.

Sumo is sumo and it will be exciting.

[Joeblack]

Every wants to see competition at highest level, not substandard. Currently, without Asashoryu, the competition will not be the best.

I for one will continue to watch sumo if Asashoryu is retired defeated. This shows that Asashoryu is no longer the best. That is not the case now, we know Asashoryu is still dominant.

I have to say, when Takanohana was injured, I have stopped watching Sumo from that time until his return. I naturally lost interest even musashimaru was around dominating, because I think it's not the best competition.

As for those who support the suspension Think about this.

Jungyo with no Asashoryu - local fans were angry that they were not able to see the grand champion

Aki and Kyushu Basho with no Asashoryu - a lot more fans nippon or internationl will be angry for not being able to see the grand champion

If they want to fine Asashoryu for his deed, or put him in house arrest, that is okay, but having suspension is at the expense of us, fans.

I, for one, want to see how Hakuho compete against Asashoryu next basho. That isn't going to happen for half year.

For those who think Sumo is all about moral discipline, I suggest you call NSK to "pressure" them to force Asashoryu to retire. Once he retires, I will certainly stop watching Sumo because I am not watching Bushido.

I am sure many Japanese young people dislike sumo for its symbolism for strict behavior control. This suspension will only confirm that.

[Bealzbob]

Nirumaruyama, I did think of that (even if I didn't mention it (Nodding yes...) ). They will definitely be more up for it than usual. Who knows, maybe even Kotomitsuki could be yokozuna by the time Asashoryu comes back !! :-/

[Hananotaka]

I'll enjoy Aki and Kyushu just fine. As I see it, Asa will be kyujo because the poor condition of his elbow and back injuries, exacerbated, no doubt, by an ill-advised game of soccer in Mongolia.

[Kotonosato]

Jungyo with no Asashoryu - local fans were angry that they were not able to see the grand champion

Aki and Kyushu Basho with no Asashoryu - a lot more fans nippon or internationl will be angry for not being able to see the grand champion

Why will we be angry? We know he's not going to be there months in advance. It's not like those that had been waiting for sumo to come to their hometown for the first time in 50 years and were disappointed to hear that the yokozuna is too injured to come. AND THEN they see the guy playing soccer on vacation somewhere. Now that's upsetting.

Once he retires, I will certainly stop watching Sumo....

Actually, I know many people who think this way in Japan. I never really understood them till now.

Mostly they are in their 50s and they say they used to be big sumo fans. When I'm at their houses during a honbasho, I mention that "it's on right now" hoping they'll turn on the TV for me. Often they oblige, but they also tell me they don't watch it anymore themselves. They quit watching after Takanohana retired. I never tell them to their faces, but I think "So you weren't really a fan of sumo at all. You were just a Takanohana fan." I guess it's natural for some Asa fans not to be interested in sumo after all.

[Takemi]

Why will we be angry? We know he's not going to be there months in advance. It's not like those that had been waiting for sumo to come to their hometown for the first time in 50 years and were disappointed to hear that the yokozuna is too injured to come. AND THEN they see the guy playing soccer on vacation somewhere. Now that's upsetting.

Uh... because we are not going to see the best fighter? Just because we are prepared doesnt mean that somebody will get upset or lose interest.

Asashoryu may not be as dominating as in the past but he still is the best and the biggest obsticle for anybody trying to yusho, especially for Kotomitsuki.

Even though the next bashos probably will be interesting you can not escape the feeling that it could have been much better.

Especially for the swedish people:

Aftonbladet got an article about the whole thing, they are going with "Jealous japanese suspends mongolian champion because of charity soccer game" thingy. Its really bad and hillarious:

http://www.aftonbladet.se/vss/sport/story/...1132479,00.html

[Washuyama]

I think what's important and maybe not mentioned so far is the psychological impact on the other rikishii.

Suddenly they know that the toughest yokozuna is definitely out for 2 basho and that will give them a lift, maybe open their eyes to possibilities of doing well and competing without the fear of meeting Asashoryu. Asa has had a huge impression on sumo in recent years and like school kids when the teacher is out sick, the other rikishi might feel free to win.

I hope this makes sense.

Sumo is sumo and it will be exciting.

I tend to agree with this line of thinking... to an extent. I doubt there is a single rikishi who enters any basho thinking "I shouldn't try for the yusho 'cause Asa already has it won."

Although to counter my own point, and to show myself how dominant Asashoryu has been, I looked at his record going back to his last basho as Sekiwake (7/2002). If you take away his first basho as both Ozeki and Yokozuna, and also those he did not complete due to injury, he has had at least 12 wins and Jun-Yusho in all basho except three. And, in his first basho as Yokozuna he had the usual shin-Yokozuna slump (10-5) and still ended up with jun-yusho. Even the most recent "greats" of Takanohana, Chiyonofuji, Kitanoumi and Taiho cannot match that.

All that being said, these next two basho are going to be very exciting for the reasons everyone has stated. I will miss watching the "near-perfection" of Asa's sumo but am looking forward to see if anybody will actually challenge Hakuho.

Sorry for rambling...... again...

[Asashosakari]

Mostly they are in their 50s and they say they used to be big sumo fans. When I'm at their houses during a honbasho, I mention that "it's on right now" hoping they'll turn on the TV for me. Often they oblige, but they also tell me they don't watch it anymore themselves. They quit watching after Takanohana retired. I never tell them to their faces, but I think "So you weren't really a fan of sumo at all. You were just a Takanohana fan." I guess it's natural for some Asa fans not to be interested in sumo after all.

There were a couple of posts to the same effect on the SML after Musashimaru retired. I mean, to each their own, but I couldn't help but think, "so you were watching this sumo stuff for nearly a decade and you couldn't find anything else in it that was going to hold your interest after Akebono and Maru retire?"

Edited August 3, 2007 by Asashosakari

[Kotonosato]

"So you weren't really a fan of sumo at all. You were just a Takanohana fan." I guess it's natural for some Asa fans not to be interested in sumo after all.

There were a couple of posts to the same effect on the SML after Musashimaru retired. I mean, to each their own, but I couldn't help but think, "so you were watching this sumo stuff for nearly a decade and you couldn't find anything else in it that was going to hold your interest after Akebono and Maru retire?"

I guess having a fellow countryman practicing the sport is the kind of thing that can make an otherwise completely foreign sport interesting to some people. I'm sure the majority of Mongolians on this list would not watch sumo at all if it weren't for the success (or at least presence) of the Mongolian rikishi.

[Chisaiyama]

All this talk of if Asa's not there it's not sumo is just pure ol' bull pookey. Sumo is nothing if not competition. And in all competitive sports you've got your share of winners and losers. When one person or team dominates a sport it is not good unless it is a mini-domination. When the Yankees won every World Series in sight back in the 50's and 60's the World Series vierwership went way down (except in NY).

Same thing back in the 60's with sumo. Taiho as great as he was, with all the hinkaku he had that Asa doesn't, still nearly killed sumo attendance. Who wants to see the same guy win everytime? Oh sure it's okay if he wins 32 tournaments a couple ata a time with someone else filling in the gaps but like Asa Taiho dominated. Twice he won 6 in a row. Several times he won 5 in a row. I forget but 5 or 6 of those 32 were Zensho.

After his Intai things got back to normal. There was true competition for a while and the sport was popular again and more than one rikishi could actually take home the Cup. Then in the mid 70's came Wajima Hiroshi (the only Yokozuna who competed using his family name) who wasted no time in becoming a mini dominant winning 14 Yusho. Including one in which he withdrew on the 13th day because of an injury to his hand and came back for the ceremonies on senshuraku to pick up the prizes.

He was injury prone however and failed to become another Taiho but he passed the baton to our beloved Kitanoumi who succeeded although not quit as well as Taiho and in turn passed it on again to our other living legend Chiyonofuji who just about completed sumo's demise from the standpoint of pure interest.

It was basically at this nadir of interest both from the fans and recruiting that the oyakata's began to look to foreing shores for help. They remembered Takamiyama's incredible popularity and started looking that direction. Once again they succeeded in creating an environment of competition without dominance. Between the novelty of the gaijin getting to be Ozekis and ultimately Yokozuna and the ascendance of the Hanada boys sumo was back in business. But then Takanohana messed up his leg and despite around a year and a half of kyujo just couldn't quite put it together again.

The time was just not right. If Asashoryu had been even just 6 months later in entering sumo then either Chiyotaikai or Kaio would have been Yokozuna and then when Asa had risen to that rank he would have had someone to look to for guidance on how a Yokozuna is supposed to behave. Instead all he had was the guidance of all the retired troops who could only tell him "in my day a Yokozuna did this or that or the other" but they couldn't show him. Deeds as they say act louder than words.

I am rambling, sorry , but it is all to prove 2 points: a) Sumo needs competition, it does not need super-stars; b) Asa is a product of both his Mongolian nature AND the lack of a proper example of how a Yokozuna should behave. He had no role model.

I believe that if hie sticks it out. If he can truly be introspective and see that being a Yokozuna is more than just being the man to beat in the Dohyo but also a SHINING role model for ALL young people not just Mongolian youngsters where the indiviuality is appently so revered. If he can do all this and come back stronger and more resolute in '08 then Sumo will be the better for it. Adn if in the process his absence should spawn another Yokozuna (not truly likely bu possible) or even just a couple of stronger Ozeki (Mickey and Osh) then it will be even better still.