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Videos of July 2006 Nagoya Basho

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Zuikakuyama    1

I think strictly speaking there is a violation of the copyright laws by posting the non-NSK stream materials (i.e., the NHK feed). That material is provided on a fee based system (for both Japanese resideents in terms of the TV license fee and for foreign residents in terms of the fees paid to cable/satellite operators), and they are being posted without permission.

None of the "fair use" exceptions to copyright infringment apply, as far as I can see. And to be honest, they are a wholesale copying of all matches. Fair use usually involves taking small snippets for commentary purposes. It really does not matter that the poster is not getting any financial rewards from the copying.

If the copying of the underlying mateial is itself a copyright infringement, the compilation does not have copyright protection. It would be like saying if I copied 10 movies and put them on a disk, then I have copyright of the material in that disk.

The NSK material is probably safer to post since it is a public stream that the NSK gives open access to.

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I'm wondering, does info-sumo has copyright for these videos? If not, and since apparently serv's intention for posting them on youtube was to help somebody else to see them, I find the way most of the posters in this tread have ganged up on him, while sucking up to the info-sumo admin., quite tasteless.

they do have the copyright of the compilation though ... If serv wants to show the bouts he could sit down and do all this work by himself and post them on youtube. This would be nice for some guys like you and it would give us the chance for more sources to watch the bouts recorded.

Since he is doing nothing but stealing someone else's work he is going to be "ganged" all we want .... (In a state of confusion...)

thanks to the recent replies I now understand what is going on. I had suspected this but thought it too simple and laughable so I thought I must be missing something else.

I am pretty informed as far as Japanese copyright law goes so can say that compilation of non-purchased or owned material is in and of itself an offence. It is illegal.

I suspect it is also an offence under international copyright laws.

These images fall initially under Japanese copyright laws and without prior permission from the owners (NSK) noone is permitted to take, manipulate or use the images publicly.

That said, people do so, for this reason, given that the first person is 'stealing the images, how on earth can he complain if another repeats the process from him? (In a state of confusion...)

Edited by Adachinoryu

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aderechelsea    106

ok i had to put the word "copyright" in quotes in my previous post ....

i understand that info-sumo doesn't have an official permission to do these compilations but at least they are puting a certain amount of work do do them. They have an ethical "copyright" to these compilations and so forth they can ask from someone who uploads their work in youtube if they can take it down. I know (and they probably too) that legally they have no saying in this situation but it is the ethical part that makes them complain.

for me it was nice of serv to try and help the other guys but since the info-sumo guys asked nicely to take the vids down from youtube he should do it.

and bext basho when we will have noone to do this work for us (you have to remeber that most of the users here are from Europe or the States) we will have no chance to see these bouts even in recorded form ....

some things that people in Japan take for granted are extremely precious to us ....

I am not an expert on legal things but i can see the use common sense when it is needed ....

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thanks to the recent replies I now understand what is going on. I had suspected this but thought it too simple and laughable so I thought I must be missing something else.

I am pretty informed as far as Japanese copyright law goes so can say that compilation of non-purchased or owned material is in and of itself an offence. It is illegal.

I suspect it is also an offence under international copyright laws.

These images fall initially under Japanese copyright laws and without prior permission from the owners (NSK) noone is permitted to take, manipulate or use the images publicly.

That said, people do so, for this reason, given that the first person is 'stealing the images, how on earth can he complain if another repeats the process from him? (Holiday feeling...)

Yes it is illegal, but as long as it was a service provided to the relatively small French sumo community, it was possible to get away with it. If you are a law-abiding citizen then you can certainly rejoice that another den of piracy has met its bitter end and the world is now a better place. Me and some others here have lost an excellent source for viewing the ongoing basho and reviewing old bouts, so we're not cheering.

Had serv been a representative of NHK and sent Info-Sumo a cease-and-desist then nobody would be complaining here because such an outcome was expected at some point anyway. But no, he is not a law-abiding citizen. He doesn't give a damn about NHK. Putting these videos on youtube, that is closely monitored by Japanese media enterprises including NHK, is a fine example of how little he cares. And when he was kindly asked to take those videos down, his response was: pfff, is there another site that provides such videos where the owner is not a complete pussy?

Hopefully this rant explains why some people are pissed off right now.

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thanks to the recent replies I now understand what is going on. I had suspected this but thought it too simple and laughable so I thought I must be missing something else.

Yes it is illegal, but as long as it was a service provided to the relatively small French sumo community
,

clearly it isn't.

Putting these videos on youtube, that is closely monitored by Japanese media enterprises including NHK,

what do you base this claim on?

Edited by Adachinoryu

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interesting link -thanks.

I saw the letters 'waiwai' and groaned to be honest.

It may be true but too many times has Japan seen news of faked ratings figures and the like these past 5 years or so. For that reason my mental jury is out on that.

Regardless - I appreciate the answer.

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I saw the letters 'waiwai' and groaned to be honest.

Yeah, I know the feeling. I had actually forgotten where I read this and wasn't too happy when the search gave me waiwai. (Holiday feeling...) Not the most trustworty source.. :-(

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Guest alks   
Guest alks
I am pretty informed as far as Japanese copyright law goes so can say that compilation of non-purchased or owned material is in and of itself an offence. It is illegal.

I suspect it is also an offence under international copyright laws.

These images fall initially under Japanese copyright laws and without prior permission from the owners (NSK) noone is permitted to take, manipulate or use the images publicly.

So, how one can obtain recent bouts videos of decent quality (and for reasonable price). I can watch compilation of previous basho TWO monthes later on EuroSport...

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Jakusotsu    1,888
I can watch compilation of previous basho TWO monthes later on EuroSport...
Be happy and rejoice! The British viewers of Eurosport are even bereft of that tiny morsel.

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Otokonoyama    678

FWIW, those looking for vids can try SumoNow! for up-to-date DVDs of the Nagoya Basho. I have no connection to them, and have no idea as to the quality you can expect. It may or may not be legal/ethical.

Caveat lector

Edited by Otokonoyama

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Guest morimori   
Guest morimori

Don't worry about playing wmv files on a mac (I thought Mac was easy to use). In september it might be easier to watch asf files if someone provides the NHK streaming recording, as I am not going to spend 2 ou 3 hours every day after TV broadcast to provide any kind of files.

I will go to the beach instead.

Well, I hope you change your mind about uploading the videos but I fully understand if you decide not to. I belong to an internet group for a certain rock band. I have uploaded torrent files (150 - 650MB) to the site and it can take 2 to 5 hours to get them all uploaded. I don't mind sharing files with others but I want them to respect the effort it took to share with them. I'm glad the link was removed and the files should have been removed from youtube IMMEDIATELY. I understand the desire to share these files but the person doing all the work to upload them should have their wishes respected. No wonder Dale stopped uploading the videos to Banzuke.com. It was probably driving him nuts! To Dale, Doitsuyama, Info-Sumo and all of the others that have uploaded movies, you have my :-)

EDIT: Now back to my semi-lurk mode

Well, you seem to be selective in the efforts that you respect, namely, only those that benefit you directly. What about the efforts and legal rights of NHK?

I would be glad if somebody finds it worthwhile their time to post videos of the bouts (but I feel that this disqualifies me from being able to moralize people left and right for copying such videos). In any case, it should not be long before good sumo coverage is available online, either for free or for a reasonable fee.

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Dale    0

I haven't been following these threads too closely, but there seem

to be many people concerned about the legality of posting sumo match

clips online. That has been of concern to me as well, of course. The

only advice I've gone on is from people at NHK and NSK, who have

said that they have been fully aware (and users of) my sumo movies

for years. I've been told that I'm just regarded as a "silly gaijin", rather

than a economic threat.

I can also understand info-sumo's anger and resentment of the person

putting his movies on youtube. Someone used to download all of my

movies and sell them on CD, even making "autographed collector's

editions" at a premium price. Unfortunately, he has since passed away.

I resented it, but at the same time, I could hardly claim any rights to

the videos. If any of the legitimate copyright holders had ever asked

me to cease and desist, I would have done so immediately. But I knew

that they were aware of my movies (they've even been mentioned on the

broadcast) and apparently had no objection. Plus, I knew that many people

really appreciated them.

I think I posted during the past basho that if anyone can possibly subscribe

to the satellite feed or attend sumo in person, they should do so in order

to financially support the sport they love.

I hope that one day I'll be able to resume the banzuke.com movies, but

my ill health makes that unlikely in the near future. So those of you who

champion the copyright of the NSK and NHK can count a little win for now :)

Dale

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Best of luck with your health Dale.

I do think you misunderstood the reason the copyright issue came out in the first place though.

Although I can't speak for all those who have referred to it in their posts above, I know I responded due to what saw I as a ridiculous concept of Info-sumo having his 'rights' trodden upon.

As you said yourself though, you had no rights when the gentleman who copied your own work repeated the process and thus (you) couldn't make the claim.

It is this that I, and I imagine others referring to copyright tried to impress upon Info-sumo and his having taken offence at having his own work copied. The old chestnut about 'what goes around comes around' best suited perhaps.

Info-sumo clearly cannot 'claim' anything on either moral or legal grounds but he went the way of having folk here and on SML try an pressure the 'offender'. I was surprised those who did so jumped on said offender as aggressively as they did in defense of such an (initial)action.

To this end, no-one is pro NSK / NHK 'rights' per se so no victory can be claimed IMHO.

Again - best of luck with what is important - your health.

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Zuikakuyama    1

I subscribe to NHK and I also find Dale's site extremely informative as a library of past matches.

There is just no way I could myself compile all the matches into easily digestible snippes like Dale has, and I appreciate his efforts very much.

This way, I think I support NHK financially and do no financial damage to NHK by accessing Dale's library.

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Getayukata    8

Message from Getayukata.

Oh dear! I do seem to have opened a can of worms with my initial request for help to view the videos on Info-sumo. I just would like everyone to know that I do not know the gentleman who posted the videos on youtube, and have not had any direct contact with him either before or since his kindly but misguided attempt to help me. I am sorry that his actions have spoiled things for everyone else, and hope that sumo viewing can soon be resumed on Info sumo so that you all can see the bashos even if I can not.

Dale, your health is much more important than sumo videos for the rest of us. Please take good care of yourself, and thanks for everything you have done.

Cheers,

Getayukata

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Ryukaze    0

Yeah thanks alot for all your hard work bro, it was great while it lasted (a god 4 or 5 years I owe you big time! lol) I really hope you get better. As for the NSK I can't imagine there hurting that bad for money so I wont lose sleep over finding somewher else to view the vids (heaven forbid.)

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Otokonoyama    678

On most P2P file sharing sites, there is often a friendly rivalry over who can provide the latest, greatest content the quickest and at the best quality. The sumo video file sharing group seems to be a little unusual in this respect. Those who really can't access sumo in any other way but to view the NSK stream, or watch videos posted to the Internet are NOT losing out over "info-sumo's" temper tantrum. NHK broadcasts, and various wrap-up/highlights programs are available out there via several torrent sites (as mentioned previously by a couple other SF members). A quick Google search will have anyone who needs sumo videos set in no time. If "info-sumo" had spent half as much time dealing with the various tech-support questions that came up, rather than crying wolf, he may have been able to rake in undue kudos for a bit longer...

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Sakana    46

To Adachinoryu. Just to explain my point of view.

About copyright, for example, I'm doing AMV (anime music video ; it's video-clips) and I use anime and music on which I have no rights because I don't ask labels for. But I have a right on my AMV (because it's a personal creation, even if I have no rights on video and sound used). It's the same case for Info-Sumo videos. (I don't know if a text exists in english, but it seems that in french, there is : Code de la propri

Edited by Sakana

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Shimpu    0
About copyright, for example, I'm doing AMV (anime music video ; it's video-clips) and I use anime and music on which I have no rights because I don't ask labels for. But I have a right on my AMV (because it's a personal creation, even if I have no rights on video and sound used). It's the same case for Info-Sumo videos. (I don't know if a text exists in english, but it seems that in french, there is : Code de la propri
Edited by Shimpu

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Kintamayama    21,118

Interesting thread.. My take:

1. Any way we look at it, reproducing any video that belongs to anyone (copyrighted, and these are copyrighted, no doubt about it) is illegal.This goes for online articles, pictures, etc.., even if the pictures are linked to the original. As for translations, well, I'm not sure, but I think legally, they are illegal.

2. We are, what 1000? 1200? sumo fans around the globe who access this stuff systematically. I'm not talking about the random fan who goes to see what's going on.

3. I don't think the NHK or NSK or NTT or JR really care about this. It's not youtube, where the access is by millions, although only a handful actually access the specific sumo vids. The POTENTIAL is in the numbers.

Dale told us the NHK knows and regards us as a bunch of gaijin wackos, which is not far from the truth. I think deep down, the NSK is probably glad this happens, as they surely know the impotence of their own feed. Or maybe I'm giving them more credit than they deserve..

In any case for us Sumo -TV -broadcast -challenged humans, there is no alternative, and if our efforts to watch the bouts are now thwarted because of sumo fans squabbling with each other and not a cease and desist from anyone "real", it is a great pity.

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Kintamayama    21,118
To Adachinoryu. Just to explain my point of view.

About copyright, for example, I'm doing AMV (anime music video ; it's video-clips) and I use anime and music on which I have no rights because I don't ask labels for. But I have a right on my AMV (because it's a personal creation, even if I have no rights on video and sound used). It's the same case for Info-Sumo videos. (I don't know if a text exists in english, but it seems that in french, there is : Code de la propri

Edited by Kintamayama

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SalParadise    0

There is a difference between intellectual property and physical property.

Intellectual property tends to apply more to things that can be easily reproduced or copied. Back in the days of tape decks, it was easy to copy over a record on to tape if you had the equipment. If you had the blueprints to a Chevy V8 engine, it would just be a matter of copying it over.

When you copy that material, you are dealing with intellectual property. While the artist does not own the actual media that the item is on (in these cases the copied blueprint paper, or the tape you bought at the local store and copied their music onto), they own the content of that paper, and the content of that tape.

And that's where things get sticky.

If someone were to steal that tape from me, despite me having stolen the content of the tape, they are guilty of stealing a tape from me -- regardless of the content. They took my physical property. I can no longer use it. This is clear cut.

If I were to obtain blueprints of a Chevy V8 engine, and build one in my garage, nobody would be the wiser, and while I would be guilty of copyright infringement (or more likely something involving industrial espionage, but keeping this semi-simple), not many people would care about me making that engine in my garage for kicks. Even if I did the same with the body, and the tires, making them all myself, nobody would care much methinks.

The issue stems from the second I try to reproduce those goods for personal profit, or distribute that intellectual property. When you record and splice the sumo matches for yourself, or even for your friends, the NSK and NHK won't harrass you a tad methinks. When you record and splice the sumo matches for distribution on a website servicing a small community, it gets a little bit trickier... When you put it on a website servicing a larger community, it gets even trickier... When you sell DVDs for the cost of making them, it gets even trickier... And when you sell DVDs for profit, it becomes a no-no.

The artists/owners in question of the intellectual property have to balance their profits with exposure, and not pissing people off. Intellectual property laws are simply not popular. Whether they merit the unpopularity or not is a discussion for another day, but the simple fact is that they're unpopular. But if NHK is too lax with enforcement, well, it'll likely end up poorly for their bottom line -- so they have to draw a line in the sand somewhere.

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Hananotaka    8
Interesting thread.. My take:

1. Any way we look at it, reproducing any video that belongs to anyone (copyrighted, and these are copyrighted, no doubt about it) is illegal.This goes for online articles, pictures, etc.., even if the pictures are linked to the original. As for translations, well, I'm not sure, but I think legally, they are illegal.

They are. As are AMVs. The copyright for such derived works is only valid if they are authorized by the original copyright holder. At least in the U.S. I suggest everyone engaged in such activity check out the copyright laws of their own country as well as the country of the source material.

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