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Peterao

Miyabiyama, Hakuho NOT promoted: NHK

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I am just baffled as to how the discussion of promotion could end due to circumstances that had nothing to do with the quality of Hakuho's sumo. Asashoryuu's day 14 win had absolutely no impact on the quality of those 14 days of sumo by Hakuho, though it may have a little impact on the day 15 win...

How has discussion ended? His 13 wins and junyusho were good enough to get his tsuna-tori continued to next basho.

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I don't live in Japan and can't read the Japanese press either, so I really don't know if there was as much - or any at all - of the yaocho talk among Japanese fans as all of us were exposed to right after Haru was complete. If there wasn't, then this this idea has no basis in fact. I just remember thinking right after Kotooshu had avoided kadoban that if these two promotions happen, what the outcry would have been, at least among the English speaking fans. Basically, I said to myself..."Oh no, not again!"

In the meantime, I would like those who can read the Japanese press to give their impressions regarding whether the Japanese fans are as concerned - or as vocal - about yaocho as many of us seem to be, and also if the NSK even cares what they think about yaocho (I know they don't care what we think).

There is considerably more talk about yaocho among foreign fans than among Japanese fans.

I think it depends on how well you know people.

Yaocho is a sensitive issue and as you know, Japanese aren't the fastest in the world to 'open up' yet, with a lot of the people I have known for some years - in most cases over five and some almost ten, there IS always talk of yaocho* and a 'raised eyebrow' when something a tad too extreme happens.

I actually did a minor test of this some years ago when I mentioend yaocho to a man I'd only just met who had been watching the sport for decades. He feigned complete ignorance. At present, were Kyokushuzan to win more than 5 at an upper megashira rank - (Sign of disapproval) - he'd be the one starting a conversation with 'How much........'

* referring to the Japanese language media though - largely pointless in that due to the power of kisha clubs they will almost always go along with what they are 'told' and will toe the line. Don't expect much investigative journalism here.

Edited by Adachinoryu

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I don't live in Japan and can't read the Japanese press either, so I really don't know if there was as much - or any at all - of the yaocho talk among Japanese fans as all of us were exposed to right after Haru was complete. If there wasn't, then this this idea has no basis in fact. I just remember thinking right after Kotooshu had avoided kadoban that if these two promotions happen, what the outcry would have been, at least among the English speaking fans. Basically, I said to myself..."Oh no, not again!"

In the meantime, I would like those who can read the Japanese press to give their impressions regarding whether the Japanese fans are as concerned - or as vocal - about yaocho as many of us seem to be, and also if the NSK even cares what they think about yaocho (I know they don't care what we think).

There is considerably more talk about yaocho among foreign fans than among Japanese fans.

I think it depends on how well you know people.

Hence, less yaocho talk among Japanese fans than among foreign fans.

Yaocho is a sensitive issue and as you know, Japanese aren't the fastest in the world to 'open up' yet, with a lot of the people I have known for some years - in most cases over five and some almost ten, there IS always talk of yaocho* and a 'raised eyebrow' when something a tad too extreme happens.

I'm not saying its swept under the rug. It's just not a hot button issue. Yaocho comes up at least every other year on the SML (or at least it used when I was there). I have never seen a discussion of it on the Japanese SML in three or so years I've been on it. To be sure, the Japanese SML is much lower traffic, and is not given to debate in the first place. But again, it just goes to my point: it's not a big concern.

* referring to the Japanese language media though - largely pointless in that due to the power of kisha clubs they will almost always go along with what they are 'told' and will toe the line. Don't expect much investigative journalism here.

And yet, Ozumo devoted a whole issue to yaocho after the Itai comments, and was critical of the Kyokai's stance.

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As for Kitanoumi's comments, I submit that given Asa's wrapping up of the yusho on Day 14, it would have been considerably anti-climatic, leading to lower ratings and ticket sales for Senshuuraku, if he had said on Saturday that Hakuhou and Miyabiyama would not be promoted even if they won. By keeping their promotion hopes alive, he kept interest in the basho until the end. Given that the news of no promotions was announced while Asashouryuu was having his mage fixed and Hakuhou was heading for the bath, I'm inclined to think the press was informed before the matches, and told to keep it quiet until after the tournament was over.

This makes the most sense to me. However, if it is the case, then not all media outlets were told (due to the reporter who came up to me to ask my opinion having no idea that the promotion was already nixed).

Personally I think it's just bad form in general. If it's decided, then say it's decided that they won't be promoted. Don't jerk around the fans, especially those who are at the bloody tournament.

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From the discussion here so far on the yaocho subject, it seems to merge to the conclusion that regardless of how much or how little actual discussion about it takes place, in public or private - NSK just yawns at such talk or print, and goes on doing what they do.

Hoping the rose' in my glass hasn't spilled onto my glasses..... (Laughing...)

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He must really regret that loss on shonichi to Asasekiryu.

That, and maybe his pre-basho actions rubbed some people the wrong way, that he wasn't being "Yokozuna-ish". Just like Asashoryu did or said (does or says?) things and gets in trouble for not behaving like a Yokozuna should.

(I'm referring to those proclaimations coming from him and/or his camp about how he was going to do this and that as a Yokozuna after the basho, and that Asashoryu was ducking him (in so many words))

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I think both of these decisions were correct!

In Hakuho's case, I think he needs to show that can concentrate for 15 days in a row, and be really dominant in a way that is expected of a Yokozuna. I think he can do that, but he hasn't quite done it yet, although he is admittedly very close. Of course, I don't think anyone could argue that he is now close to being a rikishi of Asashoryuu's caliber. Not that I think he has to be, because Asashoryuu is an especially great Yokozuna, above the average Yokozuna's of the past. Hakuho is young, and if he is truly Yokozuna material, he will make it.

In Miyabiyama's case, I think the Ozeki ranks are already too crowded with mediocre Ozekis, and Miyabiyama's 14-1 record smells like a fluke to me. It is also the content of sumo, not just the number of wins that matters, and in this respect, too, I am not impressed by Miyabiyama's sumo.

In each case, the rikishi still has an opportunity in the next tournament, so there is no rush to promote hastily.

I have started a poll on this question in the polls section.

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im wondering how the Yaocho argument even applies to this basho. the fact hakuho and miyabi WON and the kyokai already decided to not promote them means the kyokai didnt really care what happened on day 15 with either one of them. yet they both won. for yaocho to apply here it would mean something unlikely happened that would benefit someone or there is no need to fix the result. yet no one got promoted in these situations. so they could have easily just lost and given the victory to the opponent instead and allowed them to look better as yaocho implies the kyokai calls the wins and losses on certain fights. whats the point of them telling Asa and tamanoshima to lose if neither of their opponent benefit from the win? it doesnt make sense at all in this situation. the whole premiss of yaocho is that something strange happened for a reason. what is the point in having these two guys win then giving out the news that neither will get promoted? if they both lost and did not get promoted then no one would be upset. so it is quite backwards. yaocho doesnt even fit this. nothing unusually good, or even slightly good happened for it to be brought up, so why are some people saying it?

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It actually makes sense, of course. For everyone even. Due to the wins they get to carry over the promotion chance to the next basho, which is questionable with a loss. The Kyokai also can profit next basho from having another tsunatori and ozekitori basho.

You see, winning was important in any case for Hakuho and Miyabiyama. Not so much for their opponents, as Asashoryu and Tamanoshima got yusho and sansho with the loss as well.

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As for Kitanoumi's comments, I submit that given Asa's wrapping up of the yusho on Day 14, it would have been considerably anti-climatic, leading to lower ratings and ticket sales for Senshuuraku, if he had said on Saturday that Hakuhou and Miyabiyama would not be promoted even if they won. By keeping their promotion hopes alive, he kept interest in the basho until the end. Given that the news of no promotions was announced while Asashouryuu was having his mage fixed and Hakuhou was heading for the bath, I'm inclined to think the press was informed before the matches, and told to keep it quiet until after the tournament was over.

This makes the most sense to me. However, if it is the case, then not all media outlets were told (due to the reporter who came up to me to ask my opinion having no idea that the promotion was already nixed).

Personally I think it's just bad form in general. If it's decided, then say it's decided that they won't be promoted. Don't jerk around the fans, especially those who are at the bloody tournament.

Thought I'd throw in some info about the timing of the release of the news. I wasn't in Nagoya on Sunday - was writing in Tokyo. We got the news of Hakuho and Miyabiyama's non-promotion about 5 minutes after the final bout through a newsflash from Jiji Press' wire service. It was followed by quotes from Kitanoumi about 10 minutes later, with extra comments from Tomozuna oyakata and an unnamed third oyokata. This is fast, but I don't think suspiciously so - just Jiji getting a big story out as soon as they heard it.

I'll ask the sumo guys at the Yomiuri Shimbun when they get back from Nagoya when they knew about it too, but right now my feeling is that the press weren't holding back - Kitanoumi played them really well, that's all.

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I think the one bout that changed everything was miyabiyama-asashoryu. If miyabiyama would have won, he would have won his last 6, and gone 11-4, with a win against the yokozuna....guaranteed ozeki i believe. That also wouldnt have made asa have a "run away" yusho, and would have meant there would have been at least a kettei sen, again, no matter what, i think guaranteed yokozuna for hakuho, IMO.

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Guest benzys

Wakanohana does not belong on your list, as he was promoted for Nagoya98 following back-to-back Yusho in Haru98 and Natsu98.

He obviously meant this Wakanohana.

I stand corrected. Thank you.

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im wondering how the Yaocho argument even applies to this basho. the fact hakuho and miyabi WON and the kyokai already decided to not promote them means the kyokai didnt really care what happened on day 15 with either one of them. yet they both won. for yaocho to apply here it would mean something unlikely happened that would benefit someone or there is no need to fix the result. yet no one got promoted in these situations. so they could have easily just lost and given the victory to the opponent instead and allowed them to look better as yaocho implies the kyokai calls the wins and losses on certain fights. whats the point of them telling Asa and tamanoshima to lose if neither of their opponent benefit from the win? it doesnt make sense at all in this situation. the whole premiss of yaocho is that something strange happened for a reason. what is the point in having these two guys win then giving out the news that neither will get promoted? if they both lost and did not get promoted then no one would be upset. so it is quite backwards. yaocho doesnt even fit this. nothing unusually good, or even slightly good happened for it to be brought up, so why are some people saying it?

No one IS saying it. I brought up the idea that it could have been a CONCERN about yaocho talk which prompted NSK's decision not to promote, and in fact underscored the fact that there was NO yaocho. Since I don't live in Japan, I was seeking the opinions of those more closely connected than I, as to whether NSK actually cared what the public or the press says or thinks about the subject. Happily, several did pitch in with their opinions, and as a result, I (and hopefully some others) am a little better informed than before.

To my knowledge, yaocho has never been alleged by anyone here (but I haven't read Sumo Talk yet...). (Applauding...)

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I've been away and missed most of the yaocho talk, including the controversial one started by serv that's now closed. There's one point that hasn't been mentioned that seems to me to exclude any serious yaocho charges. If Asashoryu was determined to make Hakuho a yokozuna, why in the world would he let his heya-mate, Asasekiryu, effectively stifle that effort on the first day? Let Hakuho have full credit for beating Asa. It's the only thing that makes sense of day one.

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It actually makes sense, of course. For everyone even. Due to the wins they get to carry over the promotion chance to the next basho, which is questionable with a loss. The Kyokai also can profit next basho from having another tsunatori and ozekitori basho.
By not promoting Hakuho or Miyabiyama with borderline performances, the Kyokai is in a win-win position. If the rikishi bomb next basho, they will appear quite wise. If they do well, the Kyokai will simply say that they did what it takes to earn the promotion without question.

some statistics first

****************

Yokozuna 11-4, 13-2, 1-2-12,14-1

Ozeki 13-2, 13-2, 14-1 ,13-2

Asa vs Hakuho

06 Hatsu 12 Lost Kotenage

06 Haru 11 Lost Uwatedashinage

06 Haru 16 Won Shitatenage

****************

Many of You have some good reasons why not to promote Hakuho. I myself think it is not so big thing that he did mot get promoted. I believe that Hakuho is a great soon-to-be-yokozuna and a basho (or few) delay really does not matter. Still I think that they really should promote him. I think he is the best rikishi so far this year. Hakuho is not only performing yokozuna style sumo. He is performing a real GOOD YOKOZUNA style sumo.

I know many of you will say sumo is not only about statistics. It is about style, grace etc. But than think again it is a LOT about numbers as well. You do NOT get promoted if you get a 6-9 record no matter how gracefull sumo you performed and losses were all henka :-)

Back to numbers. Hakuho has lost so far 7 bouts in four bashos. Who can match it? Asashoryu ? He has lost 7 bouts in 3 bashos so far (excluded the basho he got injured) Two of Asashoryu's losses was against Hakuho in two consecutive bashos. When did it last happen? I do not say he is better than Asashoryu but in sumo you can have 2,3 even 4 yokozunas and only one can be the best. So it IS possible to be second best and worse and still be a good yokozuna. You all agree that Hakuho is #2 in sumo now. Think about it. He is #2 in sumo when at #1 spot we have one of the greatest yokozunas all time, maybe the best one ever. still our young boy have a better record this year, beating Asashoryu's ass twice in a row and having jun-yusho, play-off, yusho, jun-yusho streak this year.

As I said before I don't cry over the fact that Hakuho was not promoted although I think he deserved it. It may have been a 'wise' decission but I don't think it was fair. I worry more about having 5 ozekis noone performing ozeki class sumo stopping Miyabiyama from becoming one. Not that he is performing any sky rocket sumo but at least he does it two digit :-) Have a nice weekend my sumofriends.

sincerely eciq

ps. answer to the first quote. Is a tsunatori/ozekitori basho better for sumo (in all means) than having after years a basho with two yokozunas fighting for emperors cup, even if the new youkozuna is NOT japanese?

answer to the second quote. I agree with you in 120%

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If he deserves to be promoted, he will ultimately be promoted.

By not promoting Hakuho or Miyabiyama with borderline performances, the Kyokai is in a win-win position. If the rikishi bomb next basho, they will appear quite wise. If they do well, the Kyokai will simply say that they did what it takes to earn the promotion without question.

In my post above I missed Peterao's name in his quote. Sorry Peterao

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