Match up selection

[bigfatman 0]

Hi all,

Was hoping to tap in on everybodies huge sumo knowlege, and was wondering how the match ups are decided in the Basho...

It seems to me that the lower Maegashira wrestlers always have an easier Line-up. For example, Tamonoshima and Tamakasuga are both 9-1 in this tournament, but for me it doesn't seem as impressive, as so far they have only fought other low ranked Maegashira wrestlers. Ozeki's seem to much more often face other Sanyaku or higher ranked in thier first matches.

I know the Maegashira with good records will probably now be matched up with higher ranked wrestlers at the end of the Basho, but it seems they have an easier road to victory...

Is this intentional to keep the higher ranks super competitive? Or am I missing something?

thanks everyone

Edited July 18, 2006 by bigfatman

[Oimeru 0]

Hi all,

Was hoping to tap in on everybodies huge sumo knowlege, and was wondering how the match ups are decided in the Basho...

It seems to me that the lower Maegashira wrestlers always have an easier Line-up. For example, Tamonoshima and Tamakasuga are both 9-1 in this tournament, but for me it doesn't seem as impressive, as so far they have only fought other low ranked Maegashira wrestlers. Ozeki's seem to much more often face other Sanyaku or higher ranked in thier first matches.

I know the Maegashira with good records will probably now be matched up with higher ranked wrestlers at the end of the Basho, but it seems they have an easier road to victory...

Is this intentional to keep the higher ranks super competitive? Or am I missing something?

thanks everyone

I'm not sure why it is done the way it is, but basically you're right. Lower ranked rikishi have an easier road to kachi-koshi or good results in general. That's way some rikishi are persistently yo-yo-ing around the banzuke (Kyokushuzan comes to mind). A good basho in the lower ranks followed by a bad basho in the higher ranks...

Of course this is essential for the way the banzuke is decided on. A kachi-koshi means you rise, a make-koshi means you fall. This only works if the "strength-of-schedule" depends on the rank. Otherwise the lower ranked guys would probably lose all the time.

The only thing to take care of is an undeserved yusho by a lower ranked wrestler, but once they are put up against the big guys, this matter usually gets sorted out. There have been occasions of lower maegashira winning a yusho, though -- Takatoriki comes to mind.

Edited July 18, 2006 by Oimeru

[Asojima 2,874]

I know the Maegashira with good records will probably now be matched up with higher ranked wrestlers at the end of the Basho, but it seems they have an easier road to victory...

Is this intentional to keep the higher ranks super competitive? Or am I missing something?

Tamakasuga (M12) and Tamanoshima (M10) are the two low rankers that still have a shot at the yusho. Tomorrow, Tamakasuga moves up to Dejima (M6). Both will get progressively tougher matches until they are eliminated. I would not be surprised to see Baruto get reacquainted with one or both of them in the next few days.

[bigfatman 0]

Tamakasuga (M12) and Tamanoshima (M10) are the two low rankers that still have a shot at the yusho. Tomorrow, Tamakasuga moves up to Dejima (M6). Both will get progressively tougher matches until they are eliminated. I would not be surprised to see Baruto get reacquainted with one or both of them in the next few days.

But tomorrow Tamanoshima is against Tochinohana (M15)..... this is day 11. So if he wins tomorrow against a weak opponnent he is 10-5 at the worst at the end of the basho. Good pay increase, not so much effort.

With a 9-1 record, i would expect to see them start to be up against the sanyaku ranked wrestlers and higher...

(btw.. are Ozeki concidered Sanyaku? or is it just komusubi and sekiwake?)

[Asojima 2,874]

With a 9-1 record, i would expect to see them start to be up against the sanyaku ranked wrestlers and higher...

(btw.. are Ozeki concidered Sanyaku? or is it just komusubi and sekiwake?)

Tomorrow's matches were scheduled before they got their ninth wins today. They still have five chances to blow it. Normal procedure would be for them to be scheduled to fight each other, but they are in the same heya, so that option is out. They will only get a sanyaku opponent as a last resort.

Yes, Ozeki is considered to be part of sanyaku.

Edited July 18, 2006 by Asojima

[Odoriou 0]

... For example, Tamonoshima and Tamakasuga are both 9-1 in this tournament, but for me it doesn't seem as impressive, ...

... So if he wins tomorrow against a weak opponnent he is 10-5 at the worst at the end of the basho. Good pay increase, not so much effort. ...

But he obviously 'deserves' a big promotion. Or do you want to see Tamanoshima as low as Maegashira 8 next basho? In that case, we probably would have the same 'problem' again - he'd easily beat the mid-Maegashira.

That's why they should (and will) go on giving Tamanoshima opponents who are ranked near him for at least 3 more days. As a result he will find himself in joi-jin ranks next time and will get opponents who are in his class and better.

That's the way the banzuke works for a hundred years already - and it works just fine, methinks. (Applauding...)

[Doitsuyama 1,260]

... So if he wins tomorrow against a weak opponnent he is 10-5 at the worst at the end of the basho. Good pay increase, not so much effort. ...

The pay increase by beating up low rankers is marginal. The base salary is the same for all maegashira, no matter if joi-jin or bottom. But the hosho-kin bonus increases, by difference of wins and losses, and only for kachi-koshi. So a 12-3 gives two more hosho-kin than an 11-4, which is really marginal for a months salary, but can be worth more, depending on how many basho the rikishi in questions stays in the paid ranks for the rest of his career, since the hosho-kin bonus works cumulative.

Edited July 18, 2006 by Doitsuyama

[bigfatman 0]

No... I am not disputing how it shuold work. (Applauding...) Just trying to clarify my understanding.

Thanks for the responses guys.

One last question. How is kachi-koshi/make-koshi decided when there are absenses. (i.e. like Roho in this basho. He can't get 8 wins or 8 losses...) do absenses count as losses in this situation?

(btw.. Nice sumo smily match Odoriou... :D)

Edited July 18, 2006 by bigfatman

[Oimeru 0]

No... I am not disputing how it shuold work. (Applauding...) Just trying to clarify my understanding.

Thanks for the responses guys.

One last question. How is kachi-koshi/make-koshi decided when there are absenses. (i.e. like Roho in this basho. He can't get 8 wins or 8 losses...) do absenses count as losses in this situation?

(btw.. Nice sumo smily match Odoriou... :D)

Yes. Any fight that can not be taken counts as a loss.

There used to be the so-called kosho rule in place, but it has been scrapped. It allowed rikishi who got injured during a bout to sit out the remainder of a tournament and also the next tournament if necessary. In that case skipped bouts did not count as anything. As of now, injuries can really mean a long fall down the banzuke.

[Doitsuyama 1,260]

There used to be the so-called kosho rule in place, but it has been scrapped. It allowed rikishi who got injured during a bout to sit out the remainder of a tournament and also the next tournament if necessary. In that case skipped bouts did not count as anything. As of now, injuries can really mean a long fall down the banzuke.

Oh, the myth of the kosho magic. Sorry, but only the "next tournament" part of your statement is correct, the first part is totally wrong; for the "remainder of a tournament" the full wrath of bad banzuke luck have hit the injured rikishi even with kosho rule in effect.

[Tetsuzukiyama 0]

It seems to me that the lower Maegashira wrestlers always have an easier Line-up.

Ahh, this is one of my favorite aspects of Sumo. Here's something that might help you understand the dynamic, or could possibly confuse you to no end...

Since the Yokozuna/Ozeki have nobody higher than them to fight, there is a block of wrestlers 16 wrestlers will, for the most part, have to fight each other and share the same opponents. This means that the 11th to 16th positions are essentially screwed ( the meatgrinder ) because they're fodder for the top guys who need to face the 'best' opponents of that tournament.

There's another block at the bottom where the lower-maegashira are only occasionally fighting the top of the Juryo, and so again there are 16 guys who are mostly pitted against each other. That leaves about ten guys in the middle block who, depending on how they start against each other, move up or down as the second week progresses.

Confusing? Yeah, a bit. You can kinda see it on last tournament's Win-Loss Matrix on Masumi Abe's page, especially if you blur your vision.

The ramifications of this are interesting. Baruto (ranked 18th) was outside the top-16 and was going to start off with a much, much easier schedule than 15th ranked Roho but since he started off well he'll be wading through the Sanyaku for week 2. Kokkai was ranked 20th and his schedule is laughably easy in comparison to both.

This creates the 'meatgrinder' effect that spews the 8th to 15th down into the lower maegashira for the next banzuke while pretty much anyone between 15th and 30th with a winning record get sucked upwards for their crack at the big boys.

[Asashosakari 20,287]

Confusing? Yeah, a bit. You can kinda see it on last tournament's Win-Loss Matrix on Masumi Abe's page, especially if you blur your vision.

Nitpick time - scgroup.com is maintained by Stewart Nelson, it just incorporates the Quality Index devised by Masumi Abe. (In a state of confusion...)

Edit: Oh, I forgot about that "Information courtesy of Masumi Abe" footer - I believe this refers to some of the older basho results only.

Edited July 18, 2006 by Asashosakari

[Oimeru 0]

There used to be the so-called kosho rule in place, but it has been scrapped. It allowed rikishi who got injured during a bout to sit out the remainder of a tournament and also the next tournament if necessary. In that case skipped bouts did not count as anything. As of now, injuries can really mean a long fall down the banzuke.

Oh, the myth of the kosho magic. Sorry, but only the "next tournament" part of your statement is correct, the first part is totally wrong; for the "remainder of a tournament" the full wrath of bad banzuke luck have hit the injured rikishi even with kosho rule in effect.

Oh, sorry...I didn't want to mislead anybody.... (In a state of confusion...)

My apologies, I somehow managed to stay ignorant of that. Live and learn, I guess.

Edited July 18, 2006 by Oimeru