SalParadise 0 Posted July 19, 2006 I dislike Henka, a lot, as it makes what could be an interesting bout boring. But as stated, the 'victim' should know better. Especially the higher ranked ones. When's the last time you saw Asashoryuu fall for a henka for instance? I do like Baruto using it this once for two reasons. First of all, it shows that he is interested in winning by whatever means it takes. Secondly it will make his opponents think that he may do it, which will give him a potential mental edge even if he doesn't use it again for a whole year or more. Plus the interview was hilarious. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Iwagakki 0 Posted July 19, 2006 (edited) I think Baruto showed that he has enough sense to not stand in front of 'Taikai and get his face smashed in. If you ask me, (which nobody did) maybe it also shows that discretion is the better part of valor? Tochiazuma was having a fine basho until he decided to play the "punching bag" for 'Taikai. Edited July 19, 2006 by Iwagakki Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hananotaka 8 Posted July 19, 2006 Edit: No doubt Baruto's bad back is a result of too much tsuri-dashi. It's from Kotooshu landing on top of him yesterday. He surely has the tsuri-dashi technique perfected enough as for not to hurt himself in that manner. :) Good point, I'd forgotten about his spell vs. Kotooushuu. Still, there's a reason why even the strongest rikishi don't go for the tsuri- too much. These guys are 300-400 lbs, their low centers of gravity no doubt make them even "heavier", and the uwate grip is far from the best position bio-mechanically for taking on that kind of load. If he keeps doing that, back and ankle problems will be his bane. That is what happened to Takanonami, who fought with quite a similar style. It sucks, but I guess a henka every once in a while it's necessary evil. I'm not sure if any rikishi has completely sworn off them, because completely rooting it out from one's arsenal would mean a handicap against an opponent who hasn't. Rikishi are human, and every once in a while a guy just blinks, loses his nerve, and jumps out of the way of the oncoming truck. That's why I normally would be inclined to let it slide. But it's following the big hullaballoo Baruto made about Hakurozan's non-henka that bugs the hell out of me. If Hakurozan had henka'd, I wouldn't have had a problem with it at all, given the size difference. But he didn't: he nailed Baruto hard but off-center at the tachiai (Baruto turned his head to the side and winced at the impact), quickly got an uwate and quickly executed the throw. It was good sumo. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hananotaka 8 Posted July 19, 2006 I do like Baruto using it this once for two reasons. First of all, it shows that he is interested in winning by whatever means it takes. . That is exactly why, from an aesthetic viewpoint, I hate it. Sumo is not about winning by whatever means it takes. There's a reason why rikishi are called rikishi and not senshu, and it has to do with a certain sense of honor and mindset. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Quentooshu Posted July 19, 2006 If you didn't have the henka in Sumo rikishi wouldn't be athletes, they'd be bulldozers. Agreed. My view is that I can't view it both ways. I won't simultaneously blame Baruto for performing henka and also blame Chiyotaikai for falling for it. I consider that a fan equivalent of trying to have my cake and eat it to. The only real use of the manouver is a psychological ploy, showing that the possibility it there and making one's opponent have to honor that possibility in his mind. Any rikishi that henkas is making a bad choice because he is voluntarily lowering his chances of winning. He is basing his strategy not on what his opponent is doing, but rather what he thinks his opponent is going to do. Winning by guessing is a nice and effective way to stay out of the Sanyaku. Yokozunas are not made by guesswork. They are made by excellent sumo - sumo that is extremely hard to beat no matter what one tries. When I see a rikishi henka, I'm not driven to write an article screaming about how evil henka is and how unfair the world of sumo is that hanka works as often as it does. Instead, I feel bad for the practicioner of henka that he's made the choice to degrade his sumo to that point - the point where he's just guessing what's going to happen and hoping that he's right. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asojima 2,871 Posted July 19, 2006 Winning by guessing is a nice and effective way to stay out of the Sanyaku. So is losing. (Clapping wildly...) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Quentooshu Posted July 19, 2006 Winning by guessing is a nice and effective way to stay out of the Sanyaku. So is losing. (Dohyo-iri...) Laugh! Yep, successful rikishi find a way to avoid both. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SalParadise 0 Posted July 19, 2006 That is exactly why, from an aesthetic viewpoint, I hate it. Sumo is not about winning by whatever means it takes. There's a reason why rikishi are called rikishi and not senshu, and it has to do with a certain sense of honor and mindset. I think that the honour and mindset is often overstated when it comes to sumo and Japanese culture, but that's mainly stemming from the quite noticeable lack of real sportsmanship in any other sport than sumo. And even in sumo, I'm not so sure the sportsmanship exists so much as the image of it does. While the sumo ideal may be a display of power, the rikishi are up there to win. If they do it through 'bad sumo' too much, they get told by their oyakata or the kyokai that they're hurting their chances of making it to the really big time. And for all the talk about the rikishi being called 'rikishi' rather than 'senshuu,' there are many rikishi who use their opponents' power against them, rather than going chest to chest, or doing tsuppari or somesuch. It isn't a weightlifting competition after all... There's even a prize for technique for goodness' sake. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 18,837 Posted July 20, 2006 There's even a prize for technique for goodness' sake. Which gets awarded for all kinds of performances though. Iwakiyama once got one for basically playing a very efficient steam-roller for an entire basho. (Given that I do quite enjoy oshi-zumo when it's done well, I very much approved at the time.) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jakusotsu 5,817 Posted July 20, 2006 Not to forget Miyabiyama's gino-sho last basho. Technique, indeed.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SalParadise 0 Posted July 20, 2006 Yes, but the technique prize has also been given to people like Aminishiki, and Kyokushuuzan... Point is that 力士 (rikishi) doesn't imply raw strength alone. It includes technique, cunning, and tactics. Sometimes henka is a display of power, sometimes it's just a cheap way out, but either way it doesn't mean that the rikishi wasn't a rikishi for the day. Smaller rikishi need to use different tactics, be it circling around and try to get behind to negate their opponent's power, using throws which use their opponent's momentum, or taking a step back and slapping down at the tachiai or afterwards. I know it feels dirty to lots of people, and I don't like seeing it a lot, but sumo would be a far far far less interesting sport without it being on the table as an option for desperate rikishi and for smaller rikishi facing someone whose charge they just can't fully absorb. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hananotaka 8 Posted July 20, 2006 My view is that I can't view it both ways. I won't simultaneously blame Baruto for performing henka and also blame Chiyotaikai for falling for it. I consider that a fan equivalent of trying to have my cake and eat it to. I don't see it that way at all. Doing a henka is bad. Falling victim to a henka is worse. It's that simple.* (And again, I have no problem with small rikishi doing henka. I've never had a problem with Wakanohana III, nor Tochiazuma, nor even Dejima doing henka.) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hananotaka 8 Posted July 20, 2006 Yes, but the technique prize has also been given to people like Aminishiki, and Kyokushuuzan...Point is that 力士 (rikishi) doesn't imply raw strength alone. It includes technique, cunning, and tactics. Not at all. It means strength, and "young man, samurai". When the word was created, it referred to men of the samurai class who made their living by feats of strength, i.e., sumo. The oldest historical definition, according to Koujien, is "力の強い人", "a person of strength." Sometimes henka is a display of power, sometimes it's just a cheap way out, but either way it doesn't mean that the rikishi wasn't a rikishi for the day. Henka is never a display of power. Smaller rikishi need to use different tactics, be it circling around and try to get behind to negate their opponent's power, using throws which use their opponent's momentum, or taking a step back and slapping down at the tachiai or afterwards. And what have I said in this thread about smaller rikishi doing henka? I know it feels dirty to lots of people, and I don't like seeing it a lot, but sumo would be a far far far less interesting sport without it being on the table as an option for desperate rikishi and for smaller rikishi facing someone whose charge they just can't fully absorb. Okay, and what have I said about smaller rikishi doing henka? My point about "rikishi" vs. "senshu" is not to suggest that henka is never acceptable. It's to point that sumo is not a mere sport. Winning is not the sole goal. Winning is important, but so is a certain aesthetic of winning by strength. That includes throwing techniques that use timing and the opponent's momentum. Because the rikishi that has so won has done so by engaging with his opponent. He isn't trying to win the easy way, but rather putting all his strength and skill on the line. The spectators are entertained by the match, which has always been a primary goal of sumo, from its days as entertainment for emperors and shogun, to its days as a fund-raiser, to today. Does this mean henka is never a good thing? No, it means it's never a good thing when you're a big guy like Baruto, or Kaio, or Wakanosato. Or a yokozuna, of course. A senshu's job is merely to win. A rikishi's job, as the name implies, is to be a gentleman of strength. They are held to a higher standard. Now, I'm not a hardcase about such things. Quite the opposite, in fact. But the higher standard does exist, and its always sad when a rikishi doesn't live up to it, especially physically gifted rikishi. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kotoku 0 Posted July 21, 2006 (edited) I think Baruto should henka Chiyotaikai, a rikishi who ha employed the same technique on numerous occasions against lower rankers during his stint as Ozeki. What is more worrisome is how Baruto got totally hosed in today's match. He looks great, but his tachiai sometimes looks like Too low or too high, either way, this does not auger well for the big guy... -L- Edited July 21, 2006 by Kotoku Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Xris 2 Posted July 21, 2006 I think Baruto should henka Chiyotaikai, a rikishi who ha employed the same technique on numerous occasions against lower rankers during his stint as Ozeki.What is more worrisome is how Baruto got totally hosed in today's match. He looks great, but his tachiai sometimes looks like ... Too low or too high, either way, this does not auger well for the big guy... -L- Well apparently he knows it (from his interview yesterday: "Tachiai is so difficult. If I could only get a better start-off"). Lets hope he can do something about it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tikozan 4 Posted July 22, 2006 :-) 8-6 now he's on the way up. But on the last day it's difficult against the new public favourite Kisenosato. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yuriyama Ren 1 Posted July 22, 2006 Baruto's post on days 11-14: I'll be brief. Days 11, 12 and 13 were a total disaster, I had lack of energy, the back was hurting and I was feeling bit down. Once I climbed on the dohyo and checked out my opponent I really had no desire to fight him, therefore my lackluster performance. I tried to cook up some strategy but I couldn't think of anything. I really don't want to comment on these days, they've been analyzed enough on Delfi*. Today I was in high spirits from early morning, after a long period of rain the sun was out again and my sumo was succesful as well. It's just one bout left and the tournament will be over. * Delfi is an Estonian news portal where the comments section of the current basho has been highly critical of Baruto the last few days. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kotoku 0 Posted July 23, 2006 You'll be fine, but you are gonna have to get lower at the tachiai with your head still up. Takanonami had a horrible tachiai, and still was a great ozeki. Don't let them get under your arms, or you're toast. The great ones always look for the front of the mawashi at the tachiai. Good luck! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
serv 0 Posted July 23, 2006 Henka is never a display of power. Henka is a display of smartness. if it wasn't anything, then they wouldn't allow to henka on the sumo. U do the same Henka to the rikishi who does it. Henka, it's all about sumo tactics. if u don't like it, then it's ur problem. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sildan 0 Posted July 23, 2006 (edited) Henka is never a display of power. Henka is a display of smartness. if it wasn't anything, then they wouldn't allow to henka on the sumo. U do the same Henka to the rikishi who does it. Henka, it's all about sumo tactics. if u don't like it, then it's ur problem. Against my better judgement, I will reply: Henka are boring. They are smart in the way that getting out of the way of a moving truck is smart. However, rikishi are, in fact, NOT trucks, and can be beaten in a straight up fight using tactics that are considerably more subtle than jumping out of the way. This is the sort of sumo that I like. Cf. Hakuho's henka against Asashoryu (don't remember the basho, sorry) and their subsequent bouts. The first bout, while Asa's recovery was quite spectacular, was just not a great bout. However, both their bouts this March were extremely well-fought, and will stick in my memory for quite a while to come. Jumping out of the way, making no contact save two hands on the back, is winning (or trying to win) without playing the game. That being said, I can't wait for the Baruto-Kisenosato bout. This will be a good one. I will be severly disappointed at any henka. Edited July 23, 2006 by sildan Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Karatoshi Posted July 23, 2006 May be I 'm the only one but I think 'henka' is a sign of intelligence in the opposite to rude manpower Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bix Poku 1 Posted July 23, 2006 Am I the only one who has already enough of this h.... talk? I think there must be some other thread for such *endless* discussion. I hope that Baruto will win this last one as Kokkai lost his last bout and by winning there will be real chance for Baruto to claim Komusubi position. Go, Baruto! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sildan 0 Posted July 23, 2006 I hope that Baruto will win this last one as Kokkai lost his last bout and by winning there will be real chance for Baruto to claim Komusubi position.Go, Baruto! Perhaps our more knowledgeable forum members can enlighten us... would the kyokai favor 10-5 at M5 or 9-6 at M4? Baruto has certainly had the more difficult schedule. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doitsuyama 1,173 Posted July 23, 2006 Perhaps our more knowledgeable forum members can enlighten us... would the kyokai favor 10-5 at M5 or 9-6 at M4? Baruto has certainly had the more difficult schedule. The strength of the schedule is not much of a factor in such things. And yes, a 10-5 at M5 beats a 9-6 at M4 most of the time, but I wouldn't be too surprised to find counter-examples as the banzuke makers often decide differently in same circumstances. (no wonder considering there are 20 oyakata sitting around a table and trying to come to a conclusion) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bix Poku 1 Posted July 23, 2006 At least we have an option here. I feared that this question remains an academical one, but here we go -> Kokkai 10-5 and Baruto 9-6. Plenty of open possibilities :) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites