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yamaneko

Baruto was robbed!

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Maybe its just me here at 12:30 AM, but i could swear kitazakura's foot hit out well before baruto went out. Heck, even kitazakura was completely in the air and being thrown out before baruto hit as well. The replay guys really missed this one. The booth should have called for a mono ii

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yup, i just replayed it in super slow motion on my TIVO 10 times. Kitazakura hit his foot out for a split second, and it was well before baruto hit out.

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Maybe its just me here at 12:30 AM, but i could swear kitazakura's foot hit out well before baruto went out. Heck, even kitazakura was completely in the air and being thrown out before baruto hit as well. The replay guys really missed this one. The booth should have called for a mono ii

You'll almost never see a mono-ii on a yoritaoshi like that where one guy clearly has the initiative. At any rate, did this really need a thread of its own with that big Baruto thread already going?

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Yeah, but this one was so obvious, i would have thought mono ii especially since it wasnt complete yoritaoshi domination (a la kotoshoo vs asashoryu when he clinched ozeki). Yesterday they called a mono ii on a hakurozan bout that wasnt even close to being a tie.

Now the annoucers on the TV are mentioning it as well.

The baruto thread was kind of lower at the time of my posting it. I wanted to make a new thread because i have never seen one that was so obvious not called, especially with a high profile guy like baruto.

If any of you have Tivo, if you slow motion it, its not even close, and i think baruto was still in control...his feet never left the ground until the end, and he even lifted up kitazakura at the end. Heck, even the SECOND time kitazakura hit the ground was still before baruto touched.

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Guest Jubin

How are the rules? The monoi must recall immediately or it is possible during the day later after protest or somehow??

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i think that once they go off the dohyo thats it. Oh well. maybe this will make baruto go the rest of the basho with a "chip on his shoulder".

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Not to get into useless meta-discussions but...

The baruto thread was kind of lower at the time of my posting it.

It was the seventh-most recently updated thread at the time and thus still very prominently displayed on the first page. Please show some common sense when starting new threads, there's a reason forums use threaded displays instead of just dumping every post flat.

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Well, actually even if it was right there, i might have still done a new thread, since it was on the subject of the non mono-ii call, not a generalized comment on "baruto in makuuchi." Dont make it sound like im some gross blatant offender. There are always multiple threads made on things that could be considered the same subject. Im sure if the moderators feel that this can be doubled with the other baruto thread, they will join it like they did with the asashoryu/ouch threads. Or they could just leave it, like the did with the asashoryu "kyujo" thread which i agree deserves its own thread, even though its still related to the exact bout thats discuseed in the other thread.

Back on topic....as far as mono ii's go, one that many called for before was hakuho vs. tochiazuma a couple basho ago, but i did remember there were some other reasons that they didnt give a mono ii in that one, apart from the fact that it really didnt look like hakuho won that one. But this one, even if you say kitazakura initiated the move, i think is so obvious, im wondering where they draw the line as far as this yoritaoshi move, as opposed to the kimarite where you are about to be yoritaoshid, but you throw the guy out first over your side/shoulder.

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wow, theyre still talking about it 7 bouts later on the NHK broadcast. Can anyone who understands japanese better than i tell me what theyre talking about? They are talking about why the mono ii was not called, and even showing another reply. First time i have ever seen a reply of a lower makuuchi 30 minutes after it happened.

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You have TiVo? You can get the TV airings? Why don't you do us a favour and cut the bout and maybe even a slowmotion? It's kind of hard to argue this way. I can receive the web stream and have cut this bout, everyone can see it here.

On the bout itself. It just might be so, that Kitazakura's touched ground outside earlier. I'm not really sure from the stream but you could show us a slow-motion you say to have. I do see an overwhelming yoritaoshi here, yes. Look again. And calling that you "have never seen one that was so obvious not called" is just ... well ... I'm failing for words, but I think you are going overboard here. And don't forget, Baruto might be high profile with YOU, but objectively he is a shin-nyumaku and thus lower profile than even Kitazakura.

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But this one, even if you say kitazakura initiated the move, i think is so obvious, im wondering where they draw the line as far as this yoritaoshi move, as opposed to the kimarite where you are about to be yoritaoshid, but you throw the guy out first over your side/shoulder.

This move is called utchari, and I don't see much of it here at work. Almost nothing to be honest. Baruto just falls behind with Kitazakura on top of him. Of course, if Kitazakura's foot touches while Baruto is still "alive", Baruto should get the win. If Baruto is considered "dead" by then, it's Kitazakura's way. Such are the rules in Ozumo, it's different from Ama-zumo here. And seeing "live" or "dead" is always providing for a heated topic.

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Guest NPD

Maybe its just me here at 12:30 AM, but i could swear kitazakura's foot hit out well before baruto went out. Heck, even kitazakura was completely in the air and being thrown out before baruto hit as well. The replay guys really missed this one. The booth should have called for a mono ii

You'll almost never see a mono-ii on a yoritaoshi like that where one guy clearly has the initiative.

How can one have initative and perform yoritaoshi if both feet are flying in the air while other guy has both feet down to dohyo edge?

I can understand that there might be additional rules/traditions in sumo than just "The object is to force your opponent out of this ring (dohyo) or to make any part of his body (excepting the soles of the feet) touch the playing surface." (That was copy-paste from http://www.scgroup.com/sumo/faq/faq1.html).

So can anyone answer that: if winner makes yoritaoshi but his leg touches ground outside of dohyo before the other guy, then how long can that time be? .1 sec, .5 sec or 1 sec?

Of course I'm fan of Baruto, but I would be puzzeled over the result as well if it would be the other way around.

NPD

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Ok, Baruto was NOT robbed. The annoucers after like 1000 replays FINALLY figured out what happened. Barutos huge heel actually had touched outside before the yoritaoshi move even (then it shouldnt be yoritaoshi, right?)

There was only one angle where this could be visible from that they hadnt shown before, and still after replaying it so many times it took them about 45 minutes to find it. So i dont feel so bad. Even they couldnt figure out why there was no mono ii until now.

So, from the angles they did show i really did think that it was the most obvious non mono ii call i had ever seen. Glad to know that im wrong, because i would have been pretty upset that they could screw up such an "obvious" one. But im curious as to the kimarite. If thats the real reason that they say he lost, then it shouldnt be yoritaoshi.

I dont know how to connect my DVR to my computer, i checked the connections in the back, there are tons, but it doesnt seem like regular firewire. Can i do it with the USB connection?

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This move is called utchari, and I don't see much of it here at work. Almost nothing to be honest. Baruto just falls behind with Kitazakura on top of him. Of course, if Kitazakura's foot touches while Baruto is still "alive", Baruto should get the win. If Baruto is considered "dead" by then, it's Kitazakura's way.

Thanks. It had slipped my mind. But, with the clear broadcast and bigscreen tv, without looking at the angle that showed his heel touching out, it did seem like baruto was in control, and kitazakura had the "dead" body. Baruto lifted him up, both kita's feet were off the ground. Then kita's first foot hit the ground for a split second, then again up in the air, then, kita's whole body crashed, again, touching down before baruto even went air borne. So i really do think that if it wasnt for the heel touching, they probably would have given it to baruto. BUT, did the replay booth really see his heel touch right away, and thats why no mono ii? If so, why did it take the NHK guys 45 minutes to see it? And why is the kimarite still listed as yoritaoshi? If your foot goes out first, shouldnt it just be yorikiri?

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By the way, a perfect contrast of this would be the aminishiki roho bout. It does seem like roho is completely out of it IMO before aminishiki, thus the dead body rule, thus no mono ii called.

Anyone notice how on the replays of the baruto bout, that on the one final replay where they figured out his heel had gone out first, they actually caught one of the side judges on the camera, raise his hand up when kitazakura had his foot go out? As if in his opinion (he couldnt see baruto's heel), kitazakura lost that one...interesting.

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BUT, did the replay booth really see his heel touch right away, and thats why no mono ii? If so, why did it take the NHK guys 45 minutes to see it? And why is the kimarite still listed as yoritaoshi? If your foot goes out first, shouldnt it just be yorikiri?

The replay booth was never consulted, since there was no mono-ii. The left shimpan on the muko-shomen side raised his hand when Baruto's foot went out, indicating the match was over, before Baruto tried his utchari. The other shimpan saw the foot go out as well, so they didn't call a mono-ii.

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If your foot goes out first, shouldnt it just be yorikiri?

I don't think a yoritaoshi is determined by which body part touches outside first. The distinction is falling down backwards while being pushed out. So the kimarite should still stand as yoritaoshi (except the heel touching happened on an unrelated action).

Edited by Doitsuyama

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This move is called utchari, and I don't see much of it here at work. Almost nothing to be honest. Baruto just falls behind with Kitazakura on top of him. Of course, if Kitazakura's foot touches while Baruto is still "alive", Baruto should get the win. If Baruto is considered "dead" by then, it's Kitazakura's way.

Thanks. It had slipped my mind. But, with the clear broadcast and bigscreen tv, without looking at the angle that showed his heel touching out, it did seem like baruto was in control, and kitazakura had the "dead" body. Baruto lifted him up, both kita's feet were off the ground. Then kita's first foot hit the ground for a split second, then again up in the air, then, kita's whole body crashed, again, touching down before baruto even went air borne. So i really do think that if it wasnt for the heel touching, they probably would have given it to baruto. BUT, did the replay booth really see his heel touch right away, and thats why no mono ii? If so, why did it take the NHK guys 45 minutes to see it? And why is the kimarite still listed as yoritaoshi? If your foot goes out first, shouldnt it just be yorikiri?

It's quite obvious you have another angle than the video feed... There is nothing on that feed suggesting Kitazakura possibly could have touched ground first. It also doesn't look as if Baruto's heel actually does touch the outside, although it does look as if the left side of his left foot was the first part down (inside the dohyo), long before anything of Kitazakura could have been down. Just saying this to point out how enormously different a bout can look from different angles. Nothing strange in there not being a mono-ii, in my opinion.

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ok. it seemed as if he was putting his hand up for kitazakura according tot he reply...couldnt believe that he could see barutos heel all the way from the other side of the dohyo. Good eyes for an old guy i guess. If he really did raise his hand for that, and saw that, how i wish he could be a referee in american sports where it seems like umpires and referrees are mostly blind.

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Guest NPD

If your foot goes out first, shouldnt it just be yorikiri?

I don't think a yoritaoshi is determined by which body part touches outside first. The distinction is falling down backwards while being pushed out. So the kimarite should still stand as yoritaoshi (except the heel touching happened on an unrelated action).

Kitazakura had no way of knowing that Barutos heel was out by that time. :)

Should not do sumo with high heels. ;)

NPD

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ok. it seemed as if he was putting his hand up for kitazakura according tot he reply...couldnt believe that he could see barutos heel all the way from the other side of the dohyo. Good eyes for an old guy i guess. If he really did raise his hand for that, and saw that, how i wish he could be a referee in american sports where it seems like umpires and referrees are mostly blind.

It looks far away on TV, but actually he was right on top of the action. The shimpan's eyelines are above the edge of the dohyo, so he wasn't really blocked by the tawara or anything. A shimpan may not see something on the opposite side of the dohyo, but from the side they have no problems.

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It's quite obvious you have another angle than the video feed... There is nothing on that feed suggesting Kitazakura possibly could have touched ground first.

if you pause doits's feed tape at 1:05 exactly, at that moment, kitazakuras foot is actually outside the dohyo touching the ground. But youre right. It is hard to see from the video feed. Makes me feel not so bad on my wallet for having to pay 15-30 dollars to watch the basho from TV Japan

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if you pause doits's feed tape at 1:05 exactly, at that moment, kitazakuras foot is actually outside the dohyo touching the ground.

By 1:05, Baruto's body was long dead and halfway in the grave. The old man gave the young kid a good lesson which will serve him well in the future. A great match! B-)

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Dont make it sound like im some gross blatant offender.

Well you did have that one day not so long ago where you started like six new threads in the course of a single Makuuchi session (and which wasn't the first time you'd done something like that, just the most blatant case), so it's not like I'm just popping off at random people here.

At any rate, this thread has clearly taken off on its own now, so I withdraw my objections.

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