Japan's chance at Torino?

[Fukurou 534]

Even without the deductions, they still would have been the medalists in that order.

I'm not sure if that is necessarily so. As I understand the new system (which may be quite wrong, of course), falling down doesn't just mean you get the explicit deduction, you also lose points from your technical elements score for not executing that element.

I believe that is correct that you lose points from your score, but I don't think they're specifically listed as *deductions*. The scoring page I saw with the free skate results had specific entries for each skater for "Total Element Score", "Total Program Component Score", and "Total Deductions". As I understand it, if you don't execute the element correctly or reduce the difficulty in your planned program (such as doing a double jump instead of a planned triple), they reduce the Element and/or the Component score, but don't put a point in the "Deduction" column.

I do know for certain that Cohen and Slutskaya both fell at least once because the http://www.nbcolympics.com site has photos of them both falling. (the scoring for the second night of the ice dancing competition (when those skaters were falling all over the ice) is full of 1.00 and 2.00 deductions for all of the falls - and no deductions that I'm aware of for those who skated cleanly)

Whatever the reason for their deductions, if you add the deducted points back to their final totals, it still woudn't have changed the outcome for the medals. Arakawa beat Cohen by nearly 8 points in the final results, and Cohen beat Slutskaya by nearly 2 points.

I find myself wishing for the old categories of "Technical" and "Artistic" back, because someone once explained to me what they meant. The first was a score for 'what you did' and the second was for 'how well you did it'. :-)

Edited February 24, 2006 by Fukurou

[Asashosakari 16,996]

Whatever the reason for their deductions, if you add the deducted points back to their final totals, it still woudn't have changed the outcome for the medals. Arakawa beat Cohen by nearly 8 points in the final results, and Cohen beat Slutskaya by nearly 2 points.

Ah, I was unclear in what I meant, then - if there had been no deductions, then that's because there would have been no reason for deducting anything (i.e. no fall), in which case you'll also have to consider the effect on the other two scoring components. It's true, if you only look at the deductions on their own, the standings would be the same even without them, but then those deductions don't spontaneously materialize; you can't get deductions without also losing points elsewhere.

Now, whether it's fair to punish athletes twice for screwing up is a whole different question, and that's what you were getting at, I presume. More than one of the commentators here made the point that it discourages risk taking, since you'll lose more points for trying and failing something difficult than you do for not trying it at all.

Edited February 24, 2006 by Asashosakari

[Zentoryu 154]

Wasn't Ando supposed to be the hope for this Games, since Asada wasn't old enough? Did Ando try her quad?

I just saw Ando skate her long program (NBC is only now showing the finals here in the US) and all I can say is that she absolutely fell apart, falling a couple of times and stumbling around a lot. The announcers seemed to think there was something wrong with her because they had never seen her perform so badly.

[Jonosuke 28]

Shizuka Arakawa's incredible performance tonight in Torino can be attributed in her selection of the music piece and that brings back to my post in this thread over a month ago.

Tonight she showed guts and determination under an extreme pressure. She was more than she ever could have been...

[Fukurou 534]

Now, whether it's fair to punish athletes twice for screwing up is a whole different question, and that's what you were getting at, I presume.

No, not really. Just pointing out that 2 of the event's "big 3" had fallen, and had mandantory deductions taken from their overall scores because of it.

More than one of the commentators here made the point that it discourages risk taking, since you'll lose more points for trying and failing something difficult than you do for not trying it at all.

Really? Whenever I've watched the skating on US TV the commentators have said that the new system is encouraging people to try new stuff so they can get *more* points. Inoue and Baldwin, the US pairs skaters that did the throw triple axel in the first round (first time anyone's ever done one in the Olympics and the only pair to have ever done one in competition) said in an interview that they had to do such a difficult thing to force the judges to give them points they knew they wouldn't be getting otherwise (implying you have to be Russian or Chinese in pairs to get good scores). The goal was to try to be competitive for as long as they could, and it somewhat worked in that they got a big score for that one element. (they didn't land it in the pairs final, btw)

The more I think about it, the more I think the new scoring system is a little like diving. Each dive is worth a certain value (degree of difficulty), and you get scored on how well you do it.

Arakawa was terrific, btw.

(and after having seen them skate, I have to wonder if Michelle Kwan would have done any worse than Hughes or Meissner, or even Cohen did...)

[Fukurou 534]

Shizuka Arakawa's incredible performance tonight in Torino can be attributed in her selection of the music piece and that brings back to my post in this thread over a month ago.

Skating to Turandot in Italy, after Pavoratti had performed Nessun Dorma during the opening ceremonies, was a brilliant choice. Before she even started, the NBC commentators mentioned that her choice of music could make it a really magical night in Torino all on it's own! (I am not worthy...)

Arakawa was terrific, but I think the *incredible* performance in the entire figure skating competition was that of China's Zhang Dan, the female half of the Zhang and Zhang pairs skating team. She's the one who fell so spectacularly (just *thinking* about seeing her knee bend that way still gives me the shivers) while trying to land a quadruple throw, had to be helped off the ice, came back about 5 minutes later, picked up where they left off (with the chief judge's permission), and won the Silver medal. :-)

Edited February 24, 2006 by Fukurou

[Asashosakari 16,996]

Really? Whenever I've watched the skating on US TV the commentators have said that the new system is encouraging people to try new stuff so they can get *more* points.

Well, yeah, people who aren't good enough otherwise now have more options to brute-force their way to a better score. (Which won't work most of the time.) The ones at the top of the competition, though, have an incentive to take a no-risk approach now, especially in the short program, and many of them seemed to do exactly that, leaving out triples they would normally include in their performance.

I'm more concerned with the effect on the top competitors than that on the also-rans, quite honestly, and I suspect most of the audience feels the same way. Still, it's better than the old system in that it's apparently not as vulnerable to fraud and backroom deals (though they may yet find ways, of course), so that's a big plus. I don't know if I'd expect the system to stay exactly this way, though.

[Azumashida 1]

curling - everyone laughs at it.

That may have something to do with this (I am not worthy...)

Here are some Japanese athletes whose "performances" have raised a lot of attention at least! :-)