Hey, man, Check that Tachiai

[madorosumaru 7]

[Shomishuu 0]

Thank you for posting the results of this most interesting study. It provides a statistical basis for what anyone can see - that sumo as we have known it for perhaps 50+ years is evolving before our eyes. Matta's twin sister, Henka, having once been frowned upon by both rikishi and fan alike, now carries little stigma. Matta is headed in that direction, I think, but the consequences are more dire because more attention will be focused on the gamesmanship than the torikumi. The rikishi cannot be blamed for doing it as long as it is allowed to be used against them without penalty. The Kyokai has their own reasons for not applying the loss of match penalty that has existed, at least since 1984 (I won't presume to be able to explain them), but without real heat from the fans, they probably won't act. It is getting uglier, though.

[Flying_Monkey 0]

I think the synchronicity is important - one thing I really dislike seeing is the falking at the tachiai: people trying to draw out matta from their opponents. I think that is just as bad as jumping the tachiai. And sometimes now you see rikishi who have got annoyed by an opponent faking continuously in this way using henka as a way of demonstrating their contempt for such tactics. You end up with a cycle of poor sumo none of which has any real respect for the sport or opponents.

I think the key to reducing matta, henka and fake tachiai is to enforce synchoneous, 2-fist down tachiai. There will still be mind games (ususally in how long that position is held), but not the kind of messing about this report highlights...

[Jakusotsu 5,174]

I think the key to reducing matta, henka and fake tachiai is to enforce synchoneous, 2-fist down tachiai.

As much as I'd like to agree, I just don't see it happening. Henka would still be henka, and calling off each and every bout where not all four fists were down properly wouldn't go well with ticket sales.

[Shomishuu 0]

I think the key to reducing matta, henka and fake tachiai is to enforce synchoneous, 2-fist down tachiai. There will still be mind games (ususally in how long that position is held), but not the kind of messing about this report highlights...

I think you are exactly right about that...you'll never eliminate the mind games. The thing I wonder about is why the reluctance on the part of the Kyokai to really enforce anything, regardless of what it is. Perhaps a desire to not appear to 'take over' the presentation...maybe a cultural thingy beyond the reach of my super-methodical, over-logical, plodding mind. I dunno. But I still wonder....

[madorosumaru 7]

I think the synchronicity is important - one thing I really dislike seeing is the falking at the tachiai: people trying to draw out matta from their opponents. I think that is just as bad as jumping the tachiai.. . .

As it was stated in the original post, the "spirit of the law" is to facilitate the synchronizing of the tachiai. That's what it's all about. Jumping at the tachiai is called "tsukkake" 突っ掛け while "matta" 待った, which literally means "wait" or "hold it," is called by the rikishi holding up the tachiai--a move akin to a batter asking for "time" and stepping out of the batter's box. The resulting stoppage as a whole is also called "matta."

Certain amount of dilatory tactics and mind games would exist no matter what--that is just the nature of the beast. However, there has to some semblence of fairness in the tachiai. The Kyokai used to fine a rikishi for excessive delays, "matta," but discontinued it about five years ago. Currently, the Kyokai only calls in offending rikishi (three or more matta) to the Kyokai offices for a "talking to" or "woodshed" session.

Obviously, it doesn't seem to be working too well. There have been numerous articles and editorials in newspapers and magazines asking for stricter disciplinary measures. Suffice it to say, the Kyokai is well aware of the problem. We are standing by to see their next move.

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

Matta's twin sister, Henka, having once been frowned upon by both rikishi and fan alike, now carries little stigma.

In Japan at least, most fans are not bothered in the least by henka.

[Higashimori 0]

Matta's twin sister, Henka, having once been frowned upon by both rikishi and fan alike, now carries little stigma.

In Japan at least, most fans are not bothered in the least by henka.

any empirical data to back that up? (Whistling...)

On yesterday's senshuraku broadcast, Kitanofuji seemed to suggest that less henkas would help sumo's popularity (he was specifically commenting on the fact that there seemed to him to be much less henkas at Hatsu '06 than in recent past). I would tend to agree. Henka may not bother the serious sumo fan, but I gotta think that the casual fan, after sitting there through several shikiri sessions, only to have Tosonoumi or whomever fall flat from a henka, would wonder why the hell were they waiting so patiently.

[Shomishuu 0]

Matta's twin sister, Henka, having once been frowned upon by both rikishi and fan alike, now carries little stigma.

In Japan at least, most fans are not bothered in the least by henka.

any empirical data to back that up? (Whistling...)

On yesterday's senshuraku broadcast, Kitanofuji seemed to suggest that less henkas would help sumo's popularity (he was specifically commenting on the fact that there seemed to him to be much less henkas at Hatsu '06 than in recent past). I would tend to agree. Henka may not bother the serious sumo fan, but I gotta think that the casual fan, after sitting there through several shikiri sessions, only to have Tosonoumi or whomever fall flat from a henka, would wonder why the hell were they waiting so patiently.

From SFM Henka Sightings: Very hurriedly counted 36 henka nominations for Hatsu '06 (more or less average, compared to the prior three basho it's been done)...fan voting available for another 12 days though so don't know how many will be validated - complete update in February edition.

As far as most Japanese fans 'not bothered in the least by henka,' it's hard to judge, living here in the U.S. Seems to be the majority opinion of those here on SF, though I wonder about the in the least part. Kitanofuji's suggestion that fewer henkas would help sumo's popularity could easily simply mean, 'since fewer henkas wouldn't hurt, therefore maybe it would help.' - a fairly benign form of criticism. Doesn't sound like NSK is getting much heat from the 'bums in the seats' over it.

[Asashosakari 17,290]

As far as most Japanese fans 'not bothered in the least by henka,' it's hard to judge, living here in the U.S. Seems to be the majority opinion of those here on SF, though I wonder about the in the least part. Kitanofuji's suggestion that fewer henkas would help sumo's popularity could easily simply mean, 'since fewer henkas wouldn't hurt, therefore maybe it would help.' - a fairly benign form of criticism. Doesn't sound like NSK is getting much heat from the 'bums in the seats' over it.

Yes, I don't see that Kitanofuji's comment contradicts what Otoko-san said. There's a world of difference between "being bothered by henka" (especially when it goes all the way to "wishing death and destruction upon its perpetrators" as can frequently be found here on the forum and other places with majority non-Japanese fans) and thinking that henka isn't very attractive to the audience.

Edited January 23, 2006 by Asashosakari

[Flying_Monkey 0]

I think gaikokujin are generally much more bothered by henka, and indeed many who are excessively bothered by it, especially those casual fans who get annoyed by waiting and then a 1-secong bout, don't really get sumo, or its cultural roots... but that is possibly controversial, and I am not saying I necessarily 'get' these things much better. Despite living here, and my wife being Japanese, I will always also be gaikokujin and don't have the cultural patterning that comes from growing up within a culture. My perception, for what it is worth, is that henka is a recognised form in sumo, and recognised forms are basically acceptable as a general rule: if it is to be expected, it is fine. That's just how things are. Of course one may argue that sumo is no longer simply 'Japanese', but I don't think the NSK wants to hear that!

[Hananotaka 8]

My perception, from living here and reading Japanese sumo magazines and mailing lists, is that henka is universally seen as a bad thing. The difference, I think, between Japan and the English-speaking sumo fan community, is that there are no debates about it. No one cares to defend it, so there's no need to become strident in one's anti-henka view. A rikishi henka's, everyone sighs, shakes their head, and moves on to the next bout. The NHK play-by-play guy makes an oblique comment ("That was, perhaps, not exactly the bout the audience was looking forward to, one might say.") and the color commentator clucks his tongue and makes a less oblique one, ("That's not sumo.") For little guys in the lower ranks, its generally overlooked, particularly if it's a tactical henka, rather than a strategic one. I.e., the rikishi henka's in order to get an advantage to push his opponent out, rather than henka'ing and slapping his opponent down for a 1-second win. But at the higher levels it's less acceptable.

On the Japanese sumo ML, for example, I've never seen a henka debate. Right now, the discussion is about rikishi who try to "steal" the tachiai by standing without synchronizing with their opponent, and without putting their hands down. I mean, that's how granulated it gets. Henka is not even up for discussion, its undesirability is a matter of course.

Kitanofuji's comments, though, I took as not a comment on henka, but as a comment on the state of sumo today. The quality of the sumo on the dohyo was, until this basho, much lower than it was when I left Japan in 2001. Lots of henka's, lots of pulling, not much in the way of technique. And heck, even in 2001 the sumo pundits were bemoaning the drop in quality. I think Kitanofuji was simply saying that if the quality of the sumo is higher, then the bouts are more interesting to watch, and then more people will want to watch them. I don't always agree with Kitanofuji, but I can agree with that.

[Shomishuu 0]

My perception, from living here and reading Japanese sumo magazines and mailing lists, is that henka is universally seen as a bad thing. The difference, I think, between Japan and the English-speaking sumo fan community, is that there are no debates about it. No one cares to defend it, so there's no need to become strident in one's anti-henka view. A rikishi henka's, everyone sighs, shakes their head, and moves on to the next bout. The NHK play-by-play guy makes an oblique comment ("That was, perhaps, not exactly the bout the audience was looking forward to, one might say.") and the color commentator clucks his tongue and makes a less oblique one, ("That's not sumo.") For little guys in the lower ranks, its generally overlooked, particularly if it's a tactical henka, rather than a strategic one. I.e., the rikishi henka's in order to get an advantage to push his opponent out, rather than henka'ing and slapping his opponent down for a 1-second win. But at the higher levels it's less acceptable.

Thank you, thank you, thank you! Perhaps I have missed it but I have always wondered what the average Japanese sumo fan says/thinks about this subject (not the announcers, commentators, etc.) This puts things into a much more precise perspective for me, living in the American wasteland (when comes to sumo, anyway). Even if all living in Japan do not agree (love to hear from them, too), it makes great sense to me. The only thing I would add is that the 1-second henka win has now become acceptable at nearly all levels, except perhaps at the very top. Arigatou! (Neener, neener...)

[Flying_Monkey 0]

I didn't mean to say that henka is regarded as 'good' - I just don't think you get that degree of black and white, good and bad, as being the ultimate criteria as westerners, and especially western internet users (!), seem to. By 'fine', I meant almost what Hanonotaka explained much better, that it isn't really something that exercises the average Japanese sumo fan. And I also happen to agree with the general thrust of Japanese debate regarding the lack of synchronious tachiai as being the most important sign of the decline in technical quality...

[QttP 0]

A. Perfect tachiai, both hands down, a pause and then standing

[madorosumaru 7]

A. Perfect tachiai, both hands down, a pause and then standing

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

... A rikishi henka's, everyone sighs, shakes their head, and moves on to the next bout. The NHK play-by-play guy makes an oblique comment ("That was, perhaps, not exactly the bout the audience was looking forward to, one might say.") and the color commentator clucks his tongue and makes a less oblique one, ("That's not sumo.") ...

I think you may be oversimplifying. True, the commentators do say some of the things you mention, in certain cases. For example, when a very large & powerful rikishi henkas a much smaller opponent. Or when a rikishi uses henka several times in a tournament, as in that sumotori starts to rely on henka. As you stated, moving to the side to gain a tactical advantage is generally viewed as ok, but jumping backwards to go for a pull/slap-down (i.e. often seen in Kyokushuzan's sumo, though Hatsu Day 15 was a welcome exception) is generally frowned upon. But, on the other hand, when a henka is used to defeat a chronic bulldozer, who comes in at tachai with his head & eyes down, feet well behind his body, it is often the loser who is subject to criticism from these same commentators.

Also, many of the guest commentators are oyakata. They view sumo somewhat differently from the average fan. They never want to see rikishi move backwards, pull, etc. They prefer the winning technique to be a classical one, such as yorikiri or shitatenage. Fans tend to like more exciting techniques, such as ucchari and tsuridashi.

Edited January 30, 2006 by Otokonoyama

[Hananotaka 8]

... A rikishi henka's, everyone sighs, shakes their head, and moves on to the next bout. The NHK play-by-play guy makes an oblique comment ("That was, perhaps, not exactly the bout the audience was looking forward to, one might say.") and the color commentator clucks his tongue and makes a less oblique one, ("That's not sumo.") ...

I think you may be oversimplifying. True, the commentators do say some of the things you mention, in certain cases. For example, when a very large & powerful rikishi henkas a much smaller opponent. Or when a rikishi uses henka several times in a tournament, as in that sumotori starts to rely on henka.

Hence, I also wrote: "For little guys in the lower ranks, its generally overlooked, particularly if it's a tactical henka, rather than a strategic one. I.e., the rikishi henka's in order to get an advantage to push his opponent out, rather than henka'ing and slapping his opponent down for a 1-second win. But at the higher levels it's less acceptable."

As you stated, moving to the side to gain a tactical advantage is generally viewed as ok, but jumping backwards to go for a pull/slap-down (i.e. often seen in Kyokushuzan's sumo, though Hatsu Day 15 was a welcome exception) is generally frowned upon.

Well, henka (and the verb form "kawaru") refers pretty much to moving to the side, so Shuzan moving back would not technically be referred to as a "henka".

Also, just to clarify, "overlooked" doesn't mean "ok", it just means "overlooked".

But, on the other hand, when a henka is used to defeat a chronic bulldozer, who comes in at tachai with his head & eyes down, feet well behind his body, it is often the loser who is subject to criticism from these same commentators.

And yet the criticism is different. It's completely fine to come in charging hard, head down, on every tachiai. A rikishi who loses that way may be criticized for having his feet too far back or his head too low, but his basic plan of attack is not criticized. OTOH, if a rikishi loses because he henka'd and his opponent didn't fall for it, no one criticizes his henka technique (e.g., "He should have gotten further to the side"), they criticize the very fact that he henka'd. And, if a charging rikishi happens to win, his charging sumo isn't criticized, while a rikishi who wins by henka may still be subject to criticism, depending on his size, rank, and general expectations.

Also, many of the guest commentators are oyakata. They view sumo somewhat differently from the average fan. They never want to see rikishi move backwards, pull, etc. They prefer the winning technique to be a classical one, such as yorikiri or shitatenage. Fans tend to like more exciting techniques, such as ucchari and tsuridashi.

I would say all of the guest commentators are oyakata. Those who are just famous sumo fans are stuck in the muko-shomen seat and are tossed softball questions; they aren't expected to analyze or criticize the sumo. With the very notable exception of Demon Kogure.

But now I think you are the one oversimplifying here. Oyakata are not different from fans in what they want to see. They want to see good sumo. Utchari and tsuridashi are no less classical than yorikiri or shitatenage. An oyakata would much rather see a rikishi who is pushed to the tawara, dig in, nebaru, and then utcharu his opponent rather than just meekly give up and step outside the ring (which happens all too often these days). Tsuridashi is an excellent example of chikara-zumo, and I've never heard an oyakata say a bad word about it.

If there's a difference between fans and oyakata, it's that the oyakata take a longer view of things than most fans in the Kokugikan. If a rikishi henka's a lot, the oyakata criticize him not just because henka often deprives fans of exciting sumo, but because henka in the long term is bad sumo. Sumo that involves dodging and pulling puts excessive stress on the ankles, and often leads to rikishi having to pull off techniques from a structurally weak position, also leading to injuries. Rikishi train to move forward, that is where their strength is built up, and thus that's how oyakata want them to perform. Tactically, it's just not sound sumo to frequently concede the momentum to the opponent. In the higher ranks fewer rikishi fall for it, so a rikishi that does so is not going to have a great career.

For all of these reasons, I've never seen serious Japanese sumo fans be okay with henka as a tactic. Their opinions pretty much match those of the oyakata. Now, for the folks in the stands at the Kokugikan, who are made up of casual fans, tourists, and serious fans, it is relatively simple. They want exciting sumo. If a henka leads to an exciting match, it's great. If it leads to a one-second slap down, it sucks. One of the great things at a basho is when two rikishi are really going at it, but neither will go down or out. When there is a pause in the action the arena bursts into spontaneous applause. That's what the fans like, and that's what they want.

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

But now I think you are the one oversimplifying here. Oyakata are not different from fans in what they want to see. They want to see good sumo. Utchari and tsuridashi are no less classical than yorikiri or shitatenage. An oyakata would much rather see a rikishi who is pushed to the tawara, dig in, nebaru, and then utcharu his opponent rather than just meekly give up and step outside the ring (which happens all too often these days). Tsuridashi is an excellent example of chikara-zumo, and I've never heard an oyakata say a bad word about it.

If there's a difference between fans and oyakata, it's that the oyakata take a longer view of things than most fans in the Kokugikan. If a rikishi henka's a lot, the oyakata criticize him not just because henka often deprives fans of exciting sumo, but because henka in the long term is bad sumo. Sumo that involves dodging and pulling puts excessive stress on the ankles, and often leads to rikishi having to pull off techniques from a structurally weak position, also leading to injuries. Rikishi train to move forward, that is where their strength is built up, and thus that's how oyakata want them to perform. Tactically, it's just not sound sumo to frequently concede the momentum to the opponent. In the higher ranks fewer rikishi fall for it, so a rikishi that does so is not going to have a great career.

For all of these reasons, I've never seen serious Japanese sumo fans be okay with henka as a tactic. Their opinions pretty much match those of the oyakata. Now, for the folks in the stands at the Kokugikan, who are made up of casual fans, tourists, and serious fans, it is relatively simple. They want exciting sumo. If a henka leads to an exciting match, it's great. If it leads to a one-second slap down, it sucks. One of the great things at a basho is when two rikishi are really going at it, but neither will go down or out. When there is a pause in the action the arena bursts into spontaneous applause. That's what the fans like, and that's what they want.

We'll have to agree to disagree... ;-)

I don't believe the fans and the oyakata see eye to eye on the issue of what's desirable in sumo. If that were the case, the attendance problems that have plagued honbasho in recent years would likely be greatly lessened. The fans want excitement, whether "good" sumo, or Takamisaki's unusual shikiri. The fans wanna see Kitazakura's Mitoizumi imitation. The fans want to see Kitazakura act out his exaultations and frustations over wins & losses. The hardcore, serious fans may agree with the oyakata on what's good & proper, but there aren't enough of this sort of fan to fill all the seats all the time.

I don't think lack of henka discussion on a bbs in Japan points conclusively to all serious fans agreeing that henka is bad and therefore doesn't need to be discussed. It could just as easily point to the idea that most feel henka is no big deal and therefore doesn't need to be discussed. Using NHK broadcasts as an example, after watching the English side for several years, and the Japanese side for several years after that, the English commentators bash henka more often and more strongly than their Japanese counterparts.

[Petr 0]

Using NHK broadcasts as an example, after watching the English side for several years, and the Japanese side for several years after that, the English commentators bash henka more often and more strongly than their Japanese counterparts.

I watched the English version only a few times but it seemed to me the commentators didn't have too much to say...