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Zenjimoto

2003 Natsu SUPER BANZUKE is out!

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The 2003 Natsu SUPER BANZUKE is out! http://www.superbanzuke.com

Doitsuyama remains the sole Yokozuna for now, but catching up is young star Flohru, who takes over the Ozeki East position emphatically. He is joined in the Ozeki ranks by a NEW Ozeki, Hamanoyama, making his debut at the second highest rank, while Feginowaka, Chiyozakura and Ekigozan round out the Ozeki fivesome, all keeping their ranks. Igiski remains Sekiwake, and is joined by current Green Mawashi holder Kintamayama as shin-Sekiwake. Former Ozeki Leonishiki meanwhile falls to Komusubi, where he is joined by the first Sanyaku debut since two basho, the first Austrian to ever make the top-10, Gernobono. These ten will also comprise the field of invitees in the Natsu 2003 SB Masters! Falling out of Sanyaku after a two-banzuke stint as Komusubi is Maguroyama. Alarming is the apparent domination of the central Europeans... no less than six of the ten Sanyaku are now occupied by German-speakers!

The Natsu 2003 SUPER BANZUKE is also historic from another point of view: for the very first time, one of the widely popular Japanese sumo games has been included in the ranking! The Paper-Oyakata Game, run by Onzoushi-Oyakata, with 161 ranked participants, will be a part of the SUPER BANZUKE henceforth, with the possibility of more Japanese games joining soon. Paper Oyakata Game Ozeki Daijordan and Asahi both made their SUPER BANZUKE debuts as Sekitori already, sitting at Juryo 12w and 13e, respectively. An attempt to include the successfully resurrected CyberSumo game by Hinerikeri unfortunately failed for now, but we hope to include that game by next time!

Cheers

Zenjimoto

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I don't see why you have to add more and more games every basho. I can buy all English games, but adding japanese games as well is simply too much in my opinion, since pretty much NONE of the existing SUper Banzuke players already plays that one (except you).

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I don't see why you have to add more and more games every basho. I can buy all English games, but adding japanese games as well is simply too much in my opinion, since pretty much NONE of the existing SUper Banzuke players already plays that one (except you).

And me..I started last basho and actually won one, and did OK in all the others..

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I agree with Yubiquitoyama. There already are so many games that I have thought about just playing four or five several times. But in the end my game addiction got me every time so far....

I already quit playing GtB as the banzuke turned out to be a lottery and it really does not have that much to do with the sport itself so I will probably have problems remaining in the Top 10 for long.

Maybe you could also think about the importance of the single games. While games like Bench Sumo or hoshitori have a wide variety of chances Chain Gang for example depends a lot more on luck. Last basho many players were out because of that very unexpected loss of Asashoryu against Kyokutenho. Just one match and you are out with no chance of improving.

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I don't see why you have to add more and more games every basho. I can buy all English games, but adding japanese games as well is simply too much in my opinion, since pretty much NONE of the existing SUper Banzuke players already plays that one (except you).

I hate to criticize Zenjimoto as he gave me so much help (along with Kofuji) in setting up RotoSumo, but...

This has bothered me as well. The inclusion of the Japanese games generally favors those who speak the language. Heck, the inclusion of so many games (15 now with more apparently on the horizon) bothers me. Not everyone has the time or inclination to enter so many games, not to mention the ones where they don't understand the language. I know that someone will say it's not all that time consuming and blah blah blah... well to me it is.

I know that the purpose of the Super Banzuke is to encourage participation in as many games as possible, but I think there has to be a limit in order to make it fair to everyone. Especially to those who don't happen to speak Japanese or German.

I'm going to try and be constructive in my criticism by suggesting a change that I think addresses the imbalance that I see on the Super Banzuke.

How about something like this: the top 10 scores or so of each player from any game are the only ones counted towards that player's Super Banzuke ranking. You can also still include as many games as you want and not have certain players handicapped because they don't speak a language. And the players can pick and choose which games they really want to play in. Also, by making it the top 10 or so scores, you are still encouraging participation in as many games as possible in order to rise up the Super Banzuke.

Or maybe an idea similar to this? Or am I just being crazy? Either way, I think something should be done to address this issue.

Of course this is easy for me to suggest, I don't have to do the work involved. But if it can be implemented, I think it would make things a lot fairer for everyone involved. :-D

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The one thing that always bugged me about "our" sumo games and the SUPER BANZUKE was, that there was a notable general absence of excellent Japanese players (or, even more than a handful Japanese players at all!). I always suspected for that reason that there are Japanese games out there where some of the true prognostication wizards from the home nation of Ozumo do their thing... and, after quite a bit of searching around, it indeed turns out that there is a whole UNIVERSE out there.

I feel that if the Super Banzuke is to be an indicator of who are the world's best sumo game players, then it definitely needs to include some of these immensely popular games, which are played in many cases by more players than most of the international games, and have been around considerably longer than most of the international ones. In fact, Paper Oyakata is the third most played game after Hoshitori and Sekitori-Toto!

You will have noticed that quite a few Japanese players have takan interest in the Sekitori game twins, and many of them are some of the real big guns in Japanese sumo gaming, such as Wasarabiyama, Bafa, Yosouou, Gachinco, Iepii, Sengyoumi and many more. These players have made the move to the international games, cause they love to play :) Likewise, Moti and I are pioneers in the Japanese games, cause we love to play! :) Since we will never have the experience of going to Japan to become rikishi, stumbling our way through the Japanese sumo games and struggling up the banzuke (or not!) is about as close as it gets for us gaijin to that experience :D Thank Altavista for Babelfish! ;)

That said, I don't know if the other eligible game bosses will ultimately collaborate to join the SB. Potentially there are 5 games overall that would qualify from a participation point of view. So far, only Paper Oyakata has decided to join forces.

Generally I hope (as from the beginning) that the SB will encourage people worldwide to play more, and to make new friends and raise their enjoyment of Sumo in general... an inclusion of the Japanese games seemed like a logical step...

As far as the "importance" of various games, the ONLY way to OBJECTIVELY measure the significance of a game is its popularity, i.e., how many players like to play it. That participation number becomes the multiplier in the points calculations. I.e., a point in Hoshitori is worth more than a point in Tip-Spiel, etc.

Assigning any other sort of "importance" values to weigh the games would in my opinion be nothing more than subjective guesswork. Sure, there are certain "holy cows" out there, such as Bench Sumo, who lots of people will swear is the best game of all, or the grand auld Hoshitori Contest... but how can one fairly gauge this? It's really not possible... bottom line is, if a game is good, people will play it cause they like it, and that becomes the measurement of success...

That all said, I would agree that we have perhaps reached a saturation point as far as "how many sumo games do we NEED?" :D There are a lot out there. Remember that when I started this, there were about eight or so... now double. I do think though that since it seems hard to imagine that there would be another different game concept out there that hasn't yet been done, that hopefully we are finished with the emerging of additional games for now :P The sudden emerging of Chaingang was a surprise, as it actually brought a new concept to the gaming world... which is the reason for its quick success as well :) The unexpected return of CyberSumo was a surprise too. But, it's an old classic. I definitely think that the number of overall Super Banzuke games probably won't surpass 20, no matter what...

By the way, sitting out a basho in some games will get you KOSHO in most cases.... so if you feel like only playing 4-5 games one time, you can without seeing any major detriment in rankings. Then, next basho, you can play the other games, and take a break in those you played this time :D

Cheers!

Zenjimoto

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How about something like this: the top 10 scores or so of each player from any game are the only ones counted towards that player's Super Banzuke ranking. You can also still include as many games as you want and not have certain players handicapped because they don't speak a language. And the players can pick and choose which games they really want to play in. Also, by making it the top 10 or so scores, you are still encouraging participation in as many games as possible in order to rise up the Super Banzuke.

Interestingly, my spreadsheet already has had a separate column since the second ever Super Banzuke that had exactly this formula: using only the top-8 scores earned in any and all games to generate the ranking... so yes, this idea has been around, and under serious consideration to be included! I guess I was intending to include it sooner or later anyways, and perhaps next Super Banzuke is the time, since the number of games has now reached... a lot! :)

You might find it interesting that only 13 players actually lose points when employing the "top-8" method! The SB would look like this right now:

1 Ye Flohru

2 Oe Ekigozan

3 Ow Doitsuyama

4 O2e Hamanoyama

5 O2w Kintamayama

6 O3e Chiyozakura

7 Se Leonishiki

8 Sw Igiski

9 Ke Maguroyama

10 Kw Feginowaka

11 M1e Ookihito (2)

12 M1w Boltono (3)

13 M2e Gaijingai

14 M2w Takanorappa

15 M3e Tamanaogijima

16 M3w Rannohana

17 M4e Yubiquitoyama (1)

18 M4w Kaikitsune

19 M5e Gernobono

20 M5w Heikotoriki

21 M6e Ulsimitsuki

22 M6w Zenjimoto (8)

23 M7e Kirinoumi

24 M7w Getayukata

25 M8e Hakajusakari

26 M8w Takatamale

27 M9e Takahike

28 M9w Oshirokita

29 M10e Haraiboshi

30 M10w Heruwejima

31 M11e Danjinoumi

32 M11w Chijanofuji

33 M12e Obana

34 M12w Tameiki (5)

35 M13e Mariohana

36 M13w Sunibono

37 M14e Mannibiyama

38 M14w Itachi (9)

39 M15e Daninowaka

40 M15w Manekineko

... so really not all that different. The points losers are:

Doitsuyama 1364.84

Gernobono 637.52

Feginowaka 636.38

Igiski 403.78

Flohru 318.13

Chiyozakura 262.83

Leonishiki 218.50

Hamanoyama 211.98

Tamanaogijima 170.88

Yubiquitoyama (1) 162.05

Kintamayama 86.76

Ulsimitsuki 50.10

Maguroyama 38.36

Cheers

Zenjimoto

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I agree with Zentoryu. It has reached a point where it's necessary to change the rankings to only include the best 10 (or whatever number) games rather than all of them. 20 is too much for pretty much everyone, and me who says so is one of the most game crazy persons out there. I feel there must be a possibility to choose what games I DON'T want to participate in and still have a chance in the Super Banzuke. Everyone has some Games he don't want to miss and others he or she doesn't really like. As the rankings are now, one is forced to play ALL games, whether every basho or every other doesn't matter, because it's still ALL games. Since there is no possiblity to opt out completely from the Super Banzuke, those who are willing to play ALL games are extremely favoured and the only ones who also really care about the Super Banzuke. That way it will not be possible to get the "best" players as you say, whatever your intention. I therefore agree with Zentoryu, that the rankings must be based on the best few games for a person rather than all of them, so it's possible to choose not to participate in Japanese games.

Edited by Yubiquitoyama

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... so really not all that different. The points losers are:

Yes, but at least there exists a chance to move up for those that are handicapped by not being able to participate in all the games, for whatever the reason.

Since there is no possiblity to opt out completely from the Super Banzuke, those who are willing to play ALL games are extremely favoured and the only ones who also really care about the Super Banzuke. That way it will not be possible to get the "best" players as you say, whatever your intention. I therefore agree with Zentoryu, that the rankings must be based on the best few games for a person rather than all of them, so it's possible to choose not to participate in Japanese games.

Exactly what I was trying to say in my post, only much better stated. :-D

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I wonder why I'm pitching into this debate, since I'm not that much interested in my position on Super Banzuke (says (Punk rocker...) celebrating her ascent to Makuuchi, heh). But here's a not-so-dedicated gamer point of view:

I don't see why it would be unfair to score all Sumo Games chosen by Zenji-zeki... For most of us it would make a small difference, but why shouldn't the craz... khm, enthusiastic sumo-gamers be rewarded for all the time and effort they take to participate in all games available? If you wish to compare it to real sumo, it's like mastering a large array of kimarite - why shouldn't this be valued? :-) On the other hand, you can be really really good in several very popular games and still rise high on the Super banzuke. It's up to you.

Since there is no possiblity to opt out completely from the Super Banzuke, those who are willing to play ALL games are extremely favoured and the only ones who also really care about the Super Banzuke. That way it will not be possible to get the "best" players as you say, whatever your intention.

I don't see the problem here - if you care about Super Banzuke, you'll take the effort, and if you don't care that much you won't, ie. it won't bother you how much higher you could have been if you'd only played several games more... That's the case with me. It's true that current way of scoring doesn't necesarily put the quality-wise best players on the top, but it puts the most enthusiastic ones... and what's wrong with that?

If you wanted to choose the best quality-wise, wouldn't a mean score of all games played (ie. the current sum score divided by the number of games the player participates in - not the number of gamed where he's inside top 40) be more significant criterion? You could set a limit of minimal number of games for a player to qualify for this... (Eh?)

Chain Gang for example depends a lot more on luck. Last basho many players were out because of that very unexpected loss of Asashoryu against Kyokutenho. Just one match and you are out with no chance of improving.

Ah, but that's the charm of Chain-gang! And I wouldn't say it has any more luck factor than any of the other games... They are all based on your ability to predict scores, based on your experience, knowledge, research, and gut feeling. Kyokutenho's victory wasn't that unexpected - no yokozuna will win all the time, and Tenho has really been showing quality lately. I'd rather say Kaio's loss to Mickey on senshuraku was a complete surprise... but that's steering off-topic. I love Chain Gang (as I seem to love any game Moti comes up with) precisely because it's different! (Heart) And I won't have it badmouthed! :-D

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I don't see why it would be unfair to score all Sumo Games chosen by Zenji-zeki... For most of us it would make a small difference, but why shouldn't the craz... khm, enthusiastic sumo-gamers be rewarded for all the time and effort they take to participate in all games available? If you wish to compare it to real sumo, it's like mastering a large array of kimarite - why shouldn't this be valued?  (Punk rocker...)  On the other hand, you can be really really good in several very popular games and still rise high on the Super banzuke. It's up to you.

....

If you wanted to choose the best quality-wise, wouldn't a mean score of all games played (ie. the current sum score divided by the number of games the player participates in - not the number of gamed where he's inside top 40) be more significant criterion? You could set a limit of minimal number of games for a player to qualify for this...  :-D

I think the problem is that there are some players out there who are passionate about the games they play, but perhaps feel pressure to play more than they would like, cause they do not want to fall down the Super Banzuke compared to players who play everything... And I can see where people feel annoyed at the prospect of "having to" play a foreign-language game just so as not to be at a disadvantage when it comes to tallying up the points for the SB.

I COMPLETELY agree that the BEST way of making this ranking would always be a division factor, just like Manekineko says: divide the points by the total number of games participated, with a minimum divisor to avoid situations where a one- or two-game player would be #1 due to a favorable divisor... The problem is, my limited database/spreadsheet capabilities are exceeded. Actually, they are not. It is just a helluva lot of work to compile every single SB player's gaming habits for the divisor. But it's doable... all it takes is going through all the banzuke and marking down a notch every time a player shows up anywhere on the banzuke. Maybe I'll do a trial run to see how long that would take to do... with an alphabetized list of all SB rankers, it might not even be that bad...

Cheers

Zenjimoto

Edited by Zenjimoto

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I hate reading looong postings and therefore love yubiquitoyama's postings as they are always short and to the point.

And I fully agree with him.

My personal opinion is:

We are an english community and most (or all?) of us are members of the SML.

And all of us are able to communicate in english.

Therefore I would only include the english-spoken games in the SuperBanzuke.

To include a japanese game in the SB is extremely strange (I didn't want to say ridiculous, therefore I just say that it's strange...)

If the rules and the entry page of a game is not available in english, that game should be excluded from the SB.

For example: why is the spanish cibersumo-game not part of the SB? There are some great players competing there as well.

This is just a rhetoric question, as I really think that cibersumo doesn't have to be in the SB (as long as the rules and entry form are only available in spanish)

I'm not sure if anybody ever asked why the german TipSpiel is part of the SB.

Even if I'm one of the Ozekis there and would loose many points in the SB, I wonder why this game is part of the SB, while cibersumo is not....

Furthermore I don't see any reason why to include ChainGang to the SB.

Why don't we also include the german GTR?

This game is similar to the Chain Gang and has no Banzuke as well, as it's absultely impossible with that kind of games to make a ranking.

To count not all of the games is the fairest solution for everybody as not everybody will or can play all the games.

I think counting only the best 10 games for every player is the best solution.

Maybe it could be sensible to count not 10, but a fixed percentage of all the games, let's say 80%.

This would mean if there are 14 games, every player can have his best 11 games in the SB.

Edited by Feginowaka

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Well, I was going to defend the GTB and CG (for some odd reason..), but others have, so it's OK...But still..

There is absolutely NO larger luck factor in either, than in any other game we play. We are not the rikishi-we GUESS, in every single game, results. If we're lucky, we are right , if not, we are wrong. Eyebrows are raised: "Don't tell me that you can't know for sure who's going to win in a KaioU- Touki match!!", some will say. "Don't tell me you can't guess all the Yokozuna -Oozeki in GTB"!! I will counter. Of course, in all games, we will know a small fraction of the outcome for sure. But that's the whole point, isn't it? Not knowing? And in that Mother of all games, the BS? That, in my mind, is the game that has more luck factors than in all the others put together-who you are matched up against, how he does, how your guys are placed, etc etc. And yet, I still think it's the most intriguing and exciting game. Also, the fact that there is no one near Yokozuna, and that we have to time and again promote players to Oozeki on, well, less than acceptable merits(like me, for instance..) proves that it is virtually impossible to have a long succession of credible records ala the real world...

Regarding the Japanese games- if the ranking will be determined as it has been till now, I agree with the nays, even though I play them. We should all have the broadest equal starting point, i.e. the most common language, i.e. English. But then, out goes the Tipspiel or any other game that does not have an English rule/entry page.

OTOH, if the ranking system will be changed as suggested, then I think we all see no problem with that.

And finally, I really enjoyed winning the Masters and stuff, but it in no way was my goal- I never believed/thought planned I could do it in the first place, and secondly, I just like to play , run, and play and also run the games, regardless of my records.

I am sad to see some players not play the GTB anymore, most of them for the same reason(it becoming more of a lottery, although to me, all the games are a lottery..) especially the veterans, but that's life..

As for CG, I think it's a smashing game..

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I think I have to defend my posting now because my miserable English probably missed the point I wanted to make. Compare Bench Sumo to Chaingang: I think Shoryu is going to beat Tenho with a 90% chance, the best of the day. The unlikely case of a Tenho win becomes real. Now I am out of Chain Gang for good while in Bench Sumo I lose 4 points and still have a chance to win on that day, not to mention all remaining days. So a little bad luck means you're finished in CG while you still have good chances in BS. That is all I meant. I also like to play Chain Gang although I did not have much of it last time as I was out so early :-D

For banzuke I think that there just is no formula. The banzuke depends a lot on Kyokai policy which takes place behind closed doors. I have no idea why Tochinonada remains Maegashira. There has not been a similar case for ages. Maybe this is also a good moment to once again put up my theory of Kotomitsuki not being promoted to Ozeki only because of the balance of power within the Kyokai...

By the way we had a discussion on the German Sumo Forum about Tippspiel being included in the Super Banzuke. I still think that it should not be included as this is a disadvantage for not German speaking players. I would not want to play a game without knowing the language and I probably won't play a Japanese or the Spanish game.

I like the idea of only the best 10 results of a player included in the Super Banzuke, maybe even a smaller number. I am a game maniac and play all the English games, but there are times during a basho where I think it just takes too much time.

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I was expecting the English-speaking game of Fantasy Sumo which had 53 cyber-rikishi and a cyber-chimpanzee playing last basho (cf. http://www.sumotalk.com/standings.htm ), to be included in the superbanzuke this time round. Was there a reason why it wasn't?

cheers

jomojo

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WOW! What a discussion we suddenly have! :)

OK, here are a few answers to above issues/questions...

First off, may I refer to the SB FAQ:

Why isn't (insert game name here) included?

The games chosen to comprise the SUPER BANZUKE ranking are all widely popular (minimum of 45 ranked participants) "prediction-type" internet sumo games which require players to showcase their expertise of sumo competition through picking winners and/or losers during each Basho. Games that are of a genre other than "prediction-type", as well as games not widely played (less than ~45 players participating), and games that lack the necessary statistical archives/rankings, have not been included. Should a new game emerge that qualifies in the genre of "prediction-type" and gain enough popularity, it may well be included in the SB in the future. Already the SB has grown from its 9 original games to 12.

OK. As you can see, it says nowhere that the games must be conducted in English... :) Since the Super Banzuke is conceptualized as a "World Ranking", I don't grasp why only English games shall be included. In every other true "world ranking", for example in golf, tournaments from all over the world are included each week (whether in the USA, UK, Spain, Germany, or Japan, no matter). Is it a disadvantage for English speaking players to play other games? Looking at the large and ever-growing number of "non-german speaking" players in Tip-Spiel, I would have to say no. Fact is, there is always some one to explain things, if asked. :) And why not be a little adventurous :D

It also says that every game that qualifies WILL be included. That means every game that has 45+ participants (actually I have raised that number to 66, but forgot to change the FAQ) and that has the necessary statistical information available.

Why is Tip-Spiel included? Cause it has 105 players and a banzuke that comes out every month.

Why is Paper Oyakata included? Cause it has 161 players and a banzuke every month.

Why is Cibersumo (Spanish game) not included? Cause it allows triple entries! That's right, the mighty banzuke you see in Cibersumo consists only about 35% or unique players. Every player gets to submit 3 rikishi if they want, and since there is a "Heya competition" that adds all three up in a team, basically all players do it. I might be the only one who doesn't :) As such, the minimum players requirement is not met, and furthermore it is impossibly confusing as to how to include this triple pick system into a SB of individuals...

Why is Fantasy Sumo not included? Cause it has borderline enough players, and NO BANZUKE. As such, I have no way to incorporate it, same as CyberSumo, which definitely had enough players in the past and present. No banzuke, no SB... ISP and GISP lacked a current banzuke when the SB was started, so I took it upon me to compile these two myself, since no one else seemed to want the job. Thus, they were included. Yes, CG has a ranking. It is somewhat provisional, but nevertheless it's there. That's why CG is included. I see no reason for it not to be. It outranks UDH, RotoSumo, Tip-Spiel, GISP, Odd Sumo and Juryo Game in participants, and has seen perhaps the most explosive growth of all new games, due to the great game idea. If I may say so as a seasoned gamer, my daily CG pick is the one that gives me the most stomach ache of all. It is always the last game I pick... what a brilliant concept that can put on the pressure like this! :) By the time a year passes, my guess would be that the top players will also rise to the top of the ranking in CG, regardless of the very different game concept...

I suppose I could have made an attempt at offering help with the Fantasy Golf Banzuke, but quite frankly, I don't want to add another one to do, and at the same time, the game concept is essentially identical with the GISP, so my enthusiasm for it is somewhat muted to begin with... :)

The German GTR so far did not have enough players, although lately that seems to be going up dramatically. GTR is in no way shape or form similar to CG, though. It is rather a "traditional Yoso type game" as is found in two of the Japanese games. As such, it conceivably could be included, but it would have to meet the participation and statistics standards. Since the questions are asked by the defending champion, the format and scoring is a little different each time, adding to the language problem (its not the same game each time), which is another reason to have it on the back burner. But I would not rule it out.

Is GTB a lottery? It's called GUESS the banzuke. That's what we do... some of us banzuke-savvy fans might think that we know how a banzuke should look like, and we are probably right :) But the fact is, the challenge of the game is to GUESS the banzuke, and that means taking all the quirks of the NSK into account. The simple fact that Heikotoriki won twice, once in a widely considered "normal" round, and then again this time in an "abnormal" one, shows to me that the only reason we (and I speak for some of the higher ranked players who didn't do well here) did poorly was, we guessed wrong! :) Thid Komusubi, for starters. You know what? Half the GTB field had 2 Komusubi! So there! :)

All that said, there seems to be a strong movement towards a reform in the SB scoring, and as I said, I am open to it. Even though it hardly affects a thing... :D I'll look into the divisor by games played next time. If that proves too much work, I'll probably implement the top-10 or top-8 rule, if that makes everybody happy. Although I think that with a top-10 still not much is going to change. But who knows :)

Cheers!

Zenjimoto

Edited by Zenjimoto

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All that said, there seems to be a strong movement towards a reform in the SB scoring, and as I said, I am open to it. Even though it hardly affects a thing... :D I'll look into the divisor by games played next time. If that proves too much work, I'll probably implement the top-10 or top-8 rule, if that makes everybody happy. Although I think that with a top-10 still not much is going to change. But who knows :)

Well if you already have the top-8 system set up then go with that, especially if you think it would make more sense. Do whatever is easiest for you to do.

OK. As you can see, it says nowhere that the games must be conducted in English... :) Since the Super Banzuke is conceptualized as a "World Ranking", I don't grasp why only English games shall be included.

It comes down to a matter of convenience. Who, except the most insanely dedicated gamers, wants to go and learn Japanese or German to play a game. Or who, except the most dedicated gamers, wants to take the time to find out from friendly advisors how to play those games? And those non-english speaking players face the same dilema when it comes to the English-language games.

I like following my progress up and down the Super Banzuke, but I don't want to have to go through all that.

And whether we want to admit it or not, players who speak Japanese or German as a second language, will have an advantage over the players that don't on the Super Banzuke. In the same way, German or Japanese language players have the disadvantage if they don't speak english.

So why not change things to at least bring some balance into the Super Banzuke? Those english language only players can play the games of their choice and not be disadvantaged by not participating in Tip-Spiel or the Japanese games. The reverse can be said for the Japanese players (as more of their games are added).

If the Super Banzuke expands to 20 games, including the 5 or so Japanese games, then only counting the top 8 scores should at least create something of a level playing field. Wouldn't it?

I feel like I'm rambling, so I hope some of what I just wrote made sense...

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WOW! What a discussion we suddenly have! :)

OK, here are a few answers to above issues/questions...

I suppose I could have made an attempt at offering help with the Fantasy Golf Banzuke, but quite frankly, I don't want to add another one to do ...

Cheers!

Zenjimoto

Well, that's an innovative idea. Probably best if we just keep going with sumo games for now though.

By the way, the eight game selection proposal has my vote.

cheers,

jomojo

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SORRY, of course that was supposed to read FANTASY SUMO, NOT golf!! :D I also play Fantasy Golf, so in a temporary moment of discombobulation, I seem to have crossed over into an alternate universe!!! LOL!

Cheers!

Zenjimoto

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Among the 14 sumo prediction games, in which the top 25 cyber-rikishi have earnt their points in the current superbanzuke, these games are listed at www.sumogames.com under two styles of playing:

- 7 daily prediction games played during the basho (B-S/CG/DT/ISP/OS/SG/S-T)

- 7 pre/post basho prediction games (GTB/TH/JG/S-O/GSP/RS/UDH)

Which of the top 25 cyber-rikishi are specialists in which field of endeavours?

Well, undisputed King of the Daily Games is our superbanzuke Yokozuna Doitsuyama.

While Master of the Pre/Post Basho Universe is none other than suberbanzuke M2E Ookihito. Ookihito is a pure specialist - none of his superbanzuke points come from the Daily Games.

An honourable mention is given to superbanzuke M7W Getayukata who, among the top 25 players, is the nearest thing we have to a Daily Games specialist - she pitches in at number 6 in the Daily Games points rankings.

Below are listed the Top 12 Cyber-Rikishi in the two fields of our sport, based on their current superbanzuke points in the respective games. Only 5 players (Doitsuyama, Flohru, Feginowaka, Chiyozakura, and Leonishiki) make the top 12 in both sets of rankings.

cheers,

jomojo

Daily Games Top 12 Players

(more than 1200 superbanzuke points from the 7 games)

1) Doitsuyama - 2394.2

2) Igiski - 1960.5

3) Flohru - 1670.7

4) Gaijingai - 1646.7

5) Feginowaka - 1581.4

6) Getayukata - 1515.7

7) Chiyozakura - 1454.7

8) Zenjimoto - 1364.3

9) Gernobono - 1362.9

10) Leonishiki - 1350.9

11) Boltono - 1304.7

12) Rannohana - 1288.0

Pre/Post Basho Games Top 12 Players

(more than 1600 superbanzuke points from the 7 games)

1) Ookihito - 2591.9

2) Hamanoyama - 2330.2

3) Doitsuyama - 2239.8

4) Ekigozan - 2188.5

5) Maguroyama - 2183.0

6) Tananaogijima - 2097.8

7) Kintamayama - 2076.7

8) Flohru - 2014.7

9) Chiyozakura - 1888.7

10) Feginowaka - 1821.2

11) Leonishiki - 1746.0

12) Takanorappa - 1628.3

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Great stuff, Jomojo! :) Looks like I will have to systematically eliminate all pre-basho games if I want to illegitimately improve my position (Applauding...) (Blowing up furiously...)

Cheers

Zenjimoto

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Great stuff, Jomojo! :) Looks like I will have to systematically eliminate all pre-basho games if I want to illegitimately improve my position (Applauding...) (Blowing up furiously...)

Cheers

Zenjimoto

Thanks Zenjimoto. Well, as it happens, you would already qualify for a SuperBanzuke Daily Games Master Series, if you chose to inaugurate one this basho ... you could then pit your wits against the other nine "Giants of the Daily Games".

ciao for now.

jomojo.

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