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Manekineko

Famous fathers' sons

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Kotonowaka's retirement started this train of thought, really. We know that he has a son, a big boy for his age, so it's not unlikely that he will join ozumo and assume the proud name of Kotonowaka. Let's say this happens, and the boy never gets past makushita - would it be a dissapointment to his father-and-oyakata, and to Sadogatake supporters, that he never reached his father's level? Perhaps not... But then, imagine the pressure on Takanohana-oyakata's boy (he does have one, right?) if he joins Ozumo: three yokozuna and an ozeki in his lineage, it would be a huge letdown if he never reached san'yaku - and imagine the scandal if he never even became sekitori! (If I was Takanohana's boy I'd avoid joining sumo and pick some other sport to prove myself, but that's me...)

So that got me thinking: are there such cases already recorded in history of sumo, sons of famous (and I do mean really famous, yusho-winning probably) rikishi who failed to match or overtake their fathers? Taiho didn't have a son (AFAIK), and in-laws (Takatoriki) don't count. Chiyonofuji - does he have a son? Not that I know of, but I know very little of rikishis' family matters in the first place. Kitanoumi? Oonokuni? Futabayama? If someone knows, please share with us.

Let's see about those fathers-and-sons I do know. Takanohana and Wakanohana matched and overcame their father, late Futagoyama, ex-ozeki Takanohana. Ozeki Tochiazuma did the same to his father-and-oyakata ex-sekiwake Tochiazuma. 'Zakura bros are sons of a makushita-ranked rikishi if I remember correctly. And what was the rank of Terao's and Sakahoko's father? My guess is they at least matched his success. Who are other second or third generation rikishi now active, and how do they compare to their fathers?

I think that's interesting topic. (Applauding...)

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Kotonowaka's retirement started this train of thought, really. We know that he has a son, a big boy for his age, so it's not unlikely that he will join ozumo and assume the proud name of Kotonowaka. Let's say this happens, and the boy never gets past makushita - would it be a dissapointment to his father-and-oyakata, and to Sadogatake supporters, that he never reached his father's level? Perhaps not... But then, imagine the pressure on Takanohana-oyakata's boy (he does have one, right?) if he joins Ozumo: three yokozuna and an ozeki in his lineage, it would be a huge letdown if he never reached san'yaku - and imagine the scandal if he never even became sekitori! (If I was Takanohana's boy I'd avoid joining sumo and pick some other sport to prove myself, but that's me...)

So that got me thinking: are there such cases already recorded in history of sumo, sons of famous (and I do mean really famous, yusho-winning probably) rikishi who failed to match or overtake their fathers? Taiho didn't have a son (AFAIK), and in-laws (Takatoriki) don't count. Chiyonofuji - does he have a son? Not that I know of, but I know very little of rikishis' family matters in the first place. Kitanoumi? Oonokuni? Futabayama? If someone knows, please share with us.

Let's see about those fathers-and-sons I do know. Takanohana and Wakanohana matched and overcame their father, late Futagoyama, ex-ozeki Takanohana. Ozeki Tochiazuma did the same to his father-and-oyakata ex-sekiwake Tochiazuma. 'Zakura bros are sons of a makushita-ranked rikishi if I remember correctly. And what was the rank of Terao's and Sakahoko's father? My guess is they at least matched his success. Who are other second or third generation rikishi now active, and how do they compare to their fathers?

I think that's interesting topic. (Applauding...)

I will look at this more closely when I get home and can verify, but I think Asashio-4 and Mienoumi both have had sons failing miserably in Ozumo. The father of Terao and his two brothers was Tsurugamine who arguably was more successful than his sons although still only a Sekiwake at best. Oginishiki and Oginohana's father (also Oginohana) reached Sekiwake which his sons never did. Ex-Kurohimeyama tried to start a stable with his two sons who never really went anywhere. Masuiyama-6 (current Mihogaseki) reached Ozeki as his father, but was still a less successful rikishi all-in-all. There are quite a few more examples, but I'll get back to that...

EDIT: (Still not home, so no confirmation yet) As to three generations, I think the grandfather of Terao and his brothers was an Oosaka-sekitori named Satsumanishiki...

Edited by Yubiquitoyama

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Who are other second or third generation rikishi now active, and how do they compare to their fathers?

I think I read somewhere Kotoryu (ah, but then again he's not active any more...) is a makushita's son or was it grandson? Apparently runs in the family anyway. Would be very interesting to learn about families with rikishi (successful or not) in three or more generations...

(Applauding...) GP driver Katayama Ukyo said in some interview in Nineties when he co-drived Tyrrell with Mika Salo that his family name is well known in Japan for being a famous samurai family name. Anyone with details?

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I thought I'd check my reference at home later (I am at work) but when I saw the previous poster's name I'd decided to chip in even though it's strictly from my memory.

I believe the current Musashigawa oyakata (former Yokozuna Mienoumi) has a son and he tried Ozumo (I believe he is around the same age as Musashimaru) but if I recall he did not get past Sandanme.

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Oshima Oyakata (former Ozeki Asahikuni) has two sons. One, Kyokushoten, is currently in sandanme having reached makushita at one time. He is not going anywhere in ozumo. The other son has already quit ozumo with his highest rank in sandanme. This is why his adopted son, the recently naturalized Kyokutenho, is the most likely successor to the heya.

As for Terao and Sakahoko's dad, Tsurugamine, his highest rank was sekiwake but his reputation will live for a long time as one of the greatest gino (technical) rikishi with a career that included ten kin-boshi and ten gino-sho.

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Ok, at home now, so here is a little list of >Yokozunas and Ozekis of the last hundred years or so with sons with less of a career. Note a couple of mistakes in my previous post, but that's what you get for trying to remember...

Now at home... Okay, Asashio-4 turned out to be wrong... Here a few Yokozunas with sons of lesser merits:

Musashiyama: Father of Makushita-30 Yokoyama

Tochinoumi: Father of Jonidan Nichinoumi

Mienoumi: Father of Sandanme Ishiyama

A few Ozekis with sons of lesser merits:

Itsutsushima: Father of Jonidan Kanewaumi(?)

Kotogahama: Father of Makushita Kotogahama

Asahikuni: Father of Sandanme Kyokuhoten and Makushita Kyokushoten

A few recent Sanyaku with sons of lesser merits:

Ks Naruyama: Father of Makushita Naruyama

Sw Oginohana: Father of Ks Oginishiki and M02 Oginohana

Sw Aonosato: Father of Makushita Fusanosato

Sw Kurohimeyama: Father of Makushita Haguronada and Jonidan Hagurokuni

Sw Oshio: Father of (currently active) Jonidan-7 Tamahikari

Sw Kaiki: Father of (currently active) Makushita-6 Kaishoryu

About three or more generations, Ozeki Masuiyama (current Mihogaseki) has a father who was an Ozeki. His grandfather on his mothers side was a Komusubi (as Tamanomori) in Osaka-zumo and his father was in turn a rikishi ("nakazumo", don't know the equivalence of that rank) in Osaka-zumo, also as Tamanomori.

Kotoryu is son of a Makushita-rikishi (Tendo?) and grandson of an Osaka-zumo rikishi.

As for Terao and brothers I was also wrong... Apparently their grandfather (on Tsurugamine's side) was cousin to Makushita Satsumanishiki, while their grandfather on their mothers side was Makushita Kaganishiki.

EDIT: Hm, I actually do know Mienoumi was Yokozuna, but a post like this wouldn't be a post like this without a few errors (In jonokuchi...) Changed now...

Edited by Yubiquitoyama

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Mienoumi: Father of Sandanme Ishiyama

Great work (In jonokuchi...)

but Mienoumi finished his career as yokozuna (Showing respect...)

I remember about Ishiyama now but could not remember how far he went as I remember he was hovering around Jonidan about 10 years ago.

Incidentally I understand he is the manager at "Kappo Mienoumi" restaurant, Ginza store. A pretty classy Japanese joint most of us can't afford to frequent but still can check its web site:

http://www.mienoumi.com/gin-top.html

Edited by Jonosuke

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Thank you for all the fact digging... (Heart)

So, were these "failures" much talked about, or just politely ignored? Were they a huge dissapointment to fathers, oyakata and heya supporters? How unusual would it be for a sekitori's son not to try and follow in his father's footsteps? I see old Sadogatake's son is heya manager, if I understood Jonosuke's comment on another thread correctly. Did he ever try himself out in Ozumo?

I know, I know, I go for soap content in sumo... But it is between basho. (Laughing...)

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On the subject - Asa's just had a son, hasn't he? And the dai-Yokozuna did state that he hoped the little lad would one day be a rikishi. Try living up to that one...

But on the other hand, how many famous acters have children who themselves try it out on the big screen? (And how many of them fail utterly...)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it still more common in Japan to follow your fathers footsteps? (Compared to Europe that is.) And if you have, more or less, the same succesfull genepool as your dad, but get to inherit all his experience, and have his support from day 1 - no wonder that's a highway to success. (Must be an ever faster highway to unhappiness if you do not share dear ol' dad's passion, though...)

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I know personally the son of Takasago-oyakata. He has never been led to sumo. Never joined his home keiko. Eventually, when he entered the Law Faculty of the Rikkyou Daigaku he decided by himself to try to practice sumo with their club. In case you don't know, this club was the model for Shiko funjata (and it's kind of our sister-club (Laughing...) )

He does very well for a guy with no previous practical experience but in Ozumo terms he could still be Jonidan at best. More remarkable are his perfect manners when he greets, speaks, eats, drinks or during keiko. Growing up in a sumo stable appearently influenced more his social behaviour than his sumo skills. However, if he keeps his serious attitude to keiko, you may here from him in a couple of years from other sources as well. Very nice guy, by the way.

http://www.rikkyo.ne.jp/sgrp/sumo/

http://www.rikkyo.ne.jp/sgrp/sumo/wrestlers.htm

http://rikkyo-sumo.ameblo.jp/

Finally, this is just my personal feeling but it seems to me that many professional rikishi find sumo to be just another tough job. I woulnd't be surprised if they and especially their wifes supported their children (depending on their talents) in some other way to success.

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Guest NPD

Give some freedom of choice to small guys also, please. (Laughing...)

I'm a skydiver myself and I don't expect my children to be the same. They can take up whatewer sport they like as fas as they pick one. Balley dancing to snowboarding or whatever.

I would be actually glad to get all the 42 Makuuchi rikishi for the center of next skydiving world record. We need a fast falling center. No joke!

NPD

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Give some freedom of choice to small guys also, please. (Nodding yes...)

I'm a skydiver myself and I don't expect my children to be the same. They can take up whatewer sport they like as fas as they pick one. Balley dancing to snowboarding or whatever.

I would be actually glad to get all the 42 Makuuchi rikishi for the center of next skydiving world record. We need a fast falling center. No joke!

NPD

(You are going off-topic...)

Welcome to the forum NPD (Hugging...)

Take the time to introduce yourself at the intro sub forum when you get chance.

I did a parachute jump once in the one and only time I have been up in an aeroplane,I went up in a plane but so far I have never been there for the landing. (In a state of confusion...)

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Guest NPD

Give some freedom of choice to small guys also, please. (Nodding yes...)

I'm a skydiver myself and I don't expect my children to be the same. They can take up whatewer sport they like as fas as they pick one. Balley dancing to snowboarding or whatever.

I would be actually glad to get all the 42 Makuuchi rikishi for the center of next skydiving world record. We need a fast falling center. No joke!

NPD

(You are going off-topic...)

Welcome to the forum NPD (Hugging...)

Take the time to introduce yourself at the intro sub forum when you get chance.

I did a parachute jump once in the one and only time I have been up in an aeroplane,I went up in a plane but so far I have never been there for the landing. (In a state of confusion...)

I understand the off-topic thing. But still...

Don't expect the sons being like dads. No matter what the history shows.

NPD

PS: thank you for warm welcome.

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A welcome from me as well. Despite your username - might you get unpopular with German forum members quickly. (Censored)

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(You are going off-topic...)

But on the other hand, how many famous acters have children who themselves try it out on the big screen? (And how many of them fail utterly...)
Liza Minelli, Michael Douglas, Geraldine Chaplin, Peter and Jane Fonda, Kiefer Sutherland and Angelina Jolie cross my mind. There must be a reason that I don't remember any bad ones (In a state of confusion...)

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Just wanted to say thank you to everyone who contributed information on this thread. :-) Most impressive.

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re: Takanohana II, and his son. I imagine that if the son DOES decide to get into sumo(and I'm guessing he will be pressured to do so) the expectations will be very high, and I expect his father to be his biggest critic. I'd suppose that there would be many a beating if junior's keiko sessions aren't as hard-fought as senior's were.

Edited to note: The Takanohana I meant was the 1990s Yokozuna. I apologize for any mixups.

Edited by Gusoyama

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Just following up on Takanohana Jr (i.e. current Takanohana oyakata), he wasn't pressured at all to join, he wanted to join himself deparately. Since he was five or six years old, there was no other interest Koji had except sumo. He continued the burning desire till he joined his father's heya. At that point on, until he retired from active sumo, his father treated him as a regular recruit, no more or no less. That was their whole relationship.

While Wakanohana III was pressured to join because his younger brother joined, once they joined, they trained and worked harder than anyone else at the heya because they did not want others to think they'd get a special preference. Taka jr got up 3 AM to clean toilets and mop the floors and was the first to go down to the training dohyo. Both worked longer and harder than anyone else. Their brutal training sessions produced three more notable Makuuchi rikishis (including one Ozeki) from their heya.

For Taka Jr, there was nothing more nobler than the world of sumo then and is still now. But I do doubt his son will become a sumotori like his dad or grandad.

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Jonosuke is quite correct. When the two brothers carried their bags one flight down the stairs from the oyakata quarters on the third floor to the "Big Room" on the second, it might as well have been a journey to another world. Their father from that moment was "Oyakata" and Mom was "Okami-san." Masaru goes into the his hardship and emotions of that time in great detail in his autobiography. He recalls fondly that the two were able to survive because they were together--two teenagers reinforcing each other. How sad that the relationship has turned into its current state.

There were always high hopes and press attention for Koji, the younger brother, but the physically smaller Masaru joined pretty much to accompany his brother. His own father/oyakata thought so little of his chances that he urged the young man to get a driver's license so that he would have a skill to fall back on in case of failure. Masaru reflects upon that experience with understanding in his book.

As for Taka's son, one of the reason why Takanohana commuted to the heya for keiko every morning when he first took over the heya was because his wife refused to allow the children to be raised in the sumo environment. When Taka was criticized for this, he moved into the heya by himself, staying there during the week and returning to his house for the weekend. There is a post on this matter that you can look up through the "search" facility.

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Is there any case, ever, of a father and his son competing at the same time - albeit not on the same rank? Just thinking mathematically, it could be done.

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Is there any case, ever, of a father and his son competing at the same time - albeit not on the same rank? Just thinking mathematically, it could be done.
I think it's highly unlikely, even mathematically. Rikishi are usually not allowed to have kids until they are Sekitori, i.e. well into their twenties, and Sekitori don't tend to hang around as long as Ichinoya. Even Takanohana I missed out on his patronizing brother for three years.

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