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Araiguma_Rascal

A historic moment

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I realize we are all presumably aware of what Asashoryu has just achieved, but I didn't notice a specific thread on the topic.

The three major records that Asashoryu secured simultaneously yesterday were:

1) Most wins in one calendar year with 83, surpassing Kitanoumi's record of 82 set in 1978. If he wins today he can increase this record to 84.

2) First rikishi to win 7 straight tournaments. Taiho won 6 in a row twice, from July 1962 - May 1963, and March 1966 - January 1967. I don't believe any other rikishi won 6 in a row, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

3) First rikishi to win 6 tournaments in a calendar year. Taiho won 5 in 1966, Kitanoumi won 5 in 1978, and Chiyonofuji won 5 in 1986.

In other words, never has a rikishi had such a year (or streak) of dominance as Asashoryu has had for the last 7 tournaments.

Of slightly less importance, Asashoryu won his 15th career yusho, moving him past Wajima for 5th place in the modern era of sumo.

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After a little more checking, I should add that in the span of the 6 consecutive yusho that Taiho won twice, he won 83 and 84 victories in the streaks that began in 1962 and 1966 respectively, so those are probably the most comparable historic accomplishments.

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Guest Takanohanakoji

Can you imagine that Asashoryu won all the yusho in 2005 but also 11 of the 12 last yusho, 14 of the last 18 yusho at only 25 years old. You cannot be more consistent! I don't think there is any rikishi in sumo history not even the greatest Chiyonofuji who could achieve that. The record of 22 basho by my idol Takanohana is in sight within 18 months. If he keeps this pace in 2009-2010 he can bypass Chiyo or Taiho. But it is only speculation with the current statistics. I would prefer more challenges with other rikishi in the meantime.

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There have been many threads extoling the greatness of Asa in the past, each time the knockers have said not yet, not yet but it has got to the point where it cant realistically denied anymore.

I no more want to hear the moaning "he has got no real competition" than Iwagakki wants to hear people whinge about henka.

He went out there and did it, end of story.

Give the man his due, 3 incredible records that have cemented his name among the all time greats.

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Give the man his due, 3 incredible records that have cemented his name among the all time greats.

I agree. I don't like Asashoryu. I don't cheer for him, but I recognize his greatness.

However, I don't think it is possible to be considered an all time great yet. He can be compared to those past yokozuna, but I think more time is needed to truly see how he handles different stages of his career. Maybe he will injure himself being drunk at a victory party this weekend and never win another match, or maybe he will continue to win the majority of the yusho for the next 10 years. anyway, there's no need to rush to call him th best ever or anything.

but, anyway, congraulations asashoryu, if you happen to be reading (Showing respect...)

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Can you imagine that Asashoryu won all the yusho in 2005 but also 11 of the 12 last yusho, 14 of the last 18 yusho at only 25 years old. You cannot be more consistent! I don't think there is any rikishi in sumo history not even the greatest Chiyonofuji who could achieve that. The record of 22 basho by my idol Takanohana is in sight within 18 months. If he keeps this pace in 2009-2010 he can bypass Chiyo or Taiho. But it is only speculation with the current statistics. I would prefer more challenges with other rikishi in the meantime.

Welcome to the Sumo Forum! (Showing respect...)

Another record I think I forgot about, but that is also relevant to Asashoryu's dominance is his streak of basho as the sole yokozuna on the banzuke. Obviously, this situation will continue as long as Asashoryu remains at his current level of dominance.

That is, I believe I heard the announcers mention this, but I am not sure where to look up such information to confirm exactly what are the longest such streaks in the modern sumo era.

Anyone know?

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Another record I think I forgot about, but that is also relevant to Asashoryu's dominance is his streak of basho as the sole yokozuna on the banzuke. Obviously, this situation will continue as long as Asashoryu remains at his current level of dominance.

Why is this obvious? In Nagoya and Aki, Kotooshu was only one win short of the currently announced consideration criterion for yokozuna promotion (consecutive 13-2 records). Asashoryu can't give anybody more than one loss per basho, even if he continues to win yusho for all eternity.

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Another record I think I forgot about, but that is also relevant to Asashoryu's dominance is his streak of basho as the sole yokozuna on the banzuke. Obviously, this situation will continue as long as Asashoryu remains at his current level of dominance.

Why is this obvious? In Nagoya and Aki, Kotooshu was only one win short of the currently announced consideration criterion for yokozuna promotion (consecutive 13-2 records). Asashoryu can't give anybody more than one loss per basho, even if he continues to win yusho for all eternity.

I doubt anyone will be promoted without a single yusho. Considered, perhaps, but not promoted. Is there any precedent for a yusho-less Yokozuna? Kotoosho has done a good job to deserve the rank of Ozeki, but is still not worthy of consideration for Yokozuna promotion.

Of course I don't expect this situation to continue forever. I simply believe that the next Yokozuna will have to do better than 2 consecutive 13-2 jun-yushos.

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I doubt anyone will be promoted without a single yusho. Considered, perhaps, but not promoted. Is there any precedent for a yusho-less Yokozuna? Kotoosho has done a good job to deserve the rank of Ozeki, but is still not worthy of consideration for Yokozuna promotion.

Granted, if "current level of dominance" = "will continue to win all yusho for the foreseeable future", then I agree. I don't think that's realistic though. Asashoryu can (and probably will) continue to be quite dominating, but as 2004 showed us, just one slip-up can provide an opening. Kaio likely got within one win of getting promoted after all. And with the competition being in shambles right now, Kotooshu is pretty much the default candidate for yusho in case Asashoryu has an off-basho. Put another 13-2 ahead or after that yusho, and voila, new Yokozuna, since I doubt the Kyokai will insist on consecutive yusho in today's situation.

Perhaps I'm just arguing semantics though, I'm not sure. I do think it's likely that Asashoryu will be the sole Yokozuna for a while longer, I just don't think it's obvious.

Anyway, if Asashoryu's 2006 turns out like his 2004 did, I think that would be quite exceptional already. Asking for another 2005 is perhaps a bit ambitious. But then this is Asashoryu we're talking about, so who knows, he might go for an all-zensho year next.

Edited by Asashosakari

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I agree. I don't like Asashoryu. I don't cheer for him, but I recognize his greatness.

However, I don't think it is possible to be considered an all time great yet.

If he retired tomorrow and in 20 years people looked back what would they say? 7 in a row? 15 out of 19? 4 zensho? and thats just the numbers. He is the most technically skillful wrestler I have seen in 16 years of sumo watching.

He makes my list for top 5 of the post war era.

Edited by sekihiryu

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Give the man his due, 3 incredible records that have cemented his name among the all time greats.

I agree. I don't like Asashoryu. I don't cheer for him, but I recognize his greatness.

However, I don't think it is possible to be considered an all time great yet. He can be compared to those past yokozuna, but I think more time is needed to truly see how he handles different stages of his career. Maybe he will injure himself being drunk at a victory party this weekend and never win another match, or maybe he will continue to win the majority of the yusho for the next 10 years. anyway, there's no need to rush to call him th best ever or anything.

but, anyway, congraulations asashoryu, if you happen to be reading (Showing respect...)

Maybe not "the best ever" (which, arguably, is a useless concept anyway), but I don't think we can possibly avoid thinking about Asashoryu as ONE of the "all time greats", after what he has achieved. I doubt that there will be a single sumo fan thirty or forty years from now who won't have at least heard of Asashoryu.

... of course, this is assuming that there will still BE sumo fans in 40 years, despite the abysmal attendance in Kyushu. (Yawning...)

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I have been thinking about a lot this since yesterday, and I think sumo must be ready to get popular again in the next year. Maybe it won't be like it was in 1994, or whatever. But it must be going to get better.

Whatever I think of Kotooshu's long term prospects, I have to admit that fans like him a lot. He seems to be getting noticed as much out of the dohyo as in. He's going to draw casual fans in, and attract a few new fans. The real thing is that Asashoryu has crossed a line. He's now history in the making. Last week, he was just a Yokozuna, but now he's historic.

I generally don't watch, uh, American Football. But when there is something big going on, or if there's a close race in the division, or some big rivals, like Minnesota and Green Bay are in the Playoffs, I get pretty interested. I even watch the super bowl sometimes.

I think we are going to start seeing a similar reaction in sumo. Osh is drawing some interest, but Asa is really the big ticket right now. Every win from here on out, and there will be a lot of them, is another reason to watch. He's going to be around for a long time, hopefully. People are herd animals. All it takes is for one of the herd to notice, and the whole herd notices. (If you disagree, then explain Britney Spears...)

Now people are starting to take notice, and the interest is going to build. sumo is going to all of a sudden find a strange new crowd. It just takes one moment of "cool" , or one "leader of the pack" to take an interest, and suddenly it's the rage.

My brother in law, who has never shown anything but disdain for sumo for as long as I have known him, asked me about Asashoryu yesterday.

that's interesting. If young people in Japan, even just a few of them, are looking at sumo, because of this record breaking, then maybe there is hope after all.

Edited by Iwagakki

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My congratulations to Asashoryu. (Showing respect...) This IS really another historic moment in Sumo. In my opinion he is technically amazing and he derserves any respect. I like him a lot and I'm looking forward to watch him live on the dohyo in January.

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There is a precedent for a yusho-less yokozuna promotion: Futahaguro. he retired that way, too. messy affair, discussed numerous times elsewhere in Ozumo Discussion, i believe.

i'm not sure i agree that this will boost attendance; i think Osh's success will have a greater effect. that's in part for him, and also because Asa desperately needs a rival. the poor attendance this basho was not an accident. he may keep winning, but without a challenger to make him work harder and sweat a little no one's going to care. well, besides the hardcore fans anyway.

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The man is a dai-Yokozuna. No doubt about it in my mind. yes, in a way he's had a little less recistance than previous yokozunas - but that can only take you so far. If the recistance was so low - then why couldn't Kaio grab the chance for promotion?

But, I admit, it certainly looks as if there will be more resistance for the blue dragon in the future.

Still... What an amazing achievment!!!

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All I wanna say as a leading member of the Asashoryu fan club is-

"We told you so!!!!!!!!!" (Shaking head...)

And hes gonna continue breaking records for a long time to come. :-)

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And hes gonna continue breaking records for a long time to come. (Nodding yes...)

Hmm, not that many left. Which is the next one?

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Hmm, not that many left. Which is the next one?

There are still plenty left to beat. (Nodding yes...)

How about Futabayamas 69 consecutive winning bouts? (Blushing...)

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I agree. I don't like Asashoryu. I don't cheer for him, but I recognize his greatness.

However, I don't think it is possible to be considered an all time great yet.

If he retired tomorrow and in 20 years people looked back what would they say? 7 in a row? 15 out of 19? 4 zensho? and thats just the numbers. He is the most technically skillful wrestler I have seen in 16 years of sumo watching.

He makes my list for top 5 of the post war era.

I agree. But what if the "next crop" of young stars coming up now turns out to be better than asashoryu, and he never wins another yusho afer 2006 or so (i know- unlikely, but who knows?)? i guess you're right, he would be still considered an all-time great because of the records he has broken. I would just prefer to wait to crown him with that title until he's done even more. I'm sure there will be many more opportunities to do so. . .

Edited by Hashira

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Hmm, not that many left. Which is the next one?

There are still plenty left to beat. (Nodding yes...)

How about Futabayamas 69 consecutive winning bouts? (Blushing...)

...and Taiho's 8 zensho yusho record...

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How about Futabayamas 69 consecutive winning bouts? (Lifting weights...)

...and Taiho's 8 zensho yusho record...

All we has to do is get Asa to promose to break above 2 records. Asa promised to win 6 basho and he did. Asa kept his promise. What else has he promised?

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All we has to do is get Asa to promose to break above 2 records. Asa promised to win 6 basho and he did. Asa kept his promise. What else has he promised?

Stay away from glass doors, mirrors and human hair maybe?

Or,.....I don't know.

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Maybe not "the best ever" (which, arguably, is a useless concept anyway), but I don't think we can possibly avoid thinking about Asashoryu as ONE of the "all time greats", after what he has achieved. I doubt that there will be a single sumo fan thirty or forty years from now who won't have at least heard of Asashoryu.

... of course, this is assuming that there will still BE sumo fans in 40 years, despite the abysmal attendance in Kyushu. :-/

I will be 60 then (don't wanna know how I will look like (Blushing...) ) , and, for sure, still a fan.

Can't understan the problem...people will know his name cause OF his greatness. When I became a real fan, Asashoryu was the enemy of my favorite, so I wasn't able to like him, but he grew up - like I did and I like him more and more. His tears moved me... he must be a gentle person and I am sure I am not the only one who disliked him before, like him now. ;-) Even Uchidate-san is quiet these days.

Can't feel any respect for the "russian butchers", but much for him. The (A yokozuna...) will BE one of the big 3 ... maybe with 33 Yusho ;-)

Edited by ilovesumo

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And hes gonna continue breaking records for a long time to come. ;-)

Hmm, not that many left. Which is the next one?

I'm sure it'll be not the next one, but Asa can get Chiyonofuji's 807 Makuuchi wins. He is in Makuuchi for exactly 5 years now and has already 348 wins (that's an average of 69,6 wins per year). If he keeps this average, he'll get Chiyonofuji in 2012.

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I am a huge fan of Asashoryu and what he is about both on and off the dohyo. Unfortunately accidents happen, new rikishi arrive and things just flat-out change. I don't see Asashoryu being focused enough to get continuous zensho for more than two tournaments. He needs to take some time off to re-energize.

He is also not that big.

It would just take one mistake picking someone up, and then it is chronic knee/shoulder/back problems from there on out... I hope it never happens, but no doubt there's a kid somewhere who is going to come up and be Asa's nemesis. When is the big question. In the meantime, his sumo is a thing of beauty.

Can you imagine Chiyonofiji with his toku ii waza hidari-maimitsu against Asashoryu with his morozashi double-inside grip? It would make for some pretty great tachiai...

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