Absolutely Disgusted

[Guest benkei]

What the **** was Shunketsu thinking???!!!!! That was the worst thing I have ever seen in all the years I have watched Sumo.

Asa should pay a visit to his stable this winter and break this guy. How absolutely shameful.

[QttP 0]

What the **** was Shunketsu thinking???!!!!! That was the worst thing I have ever seen in all the years I have watched Sumo.

Asa should pay a visit to his stable this winter and break this guy. How absolutely shameful.

I assume you haven't seen this then. How come? Were you from some reason unable to watch that particular day of that particular basho or does "all the years" means "the entire year" in your tongue?

[sekihiryu 51]

In hindsight Hakuho helped prevent a travesty of Sumo as the "one hit wonder" Hoku has since provided with us with his less than distinguished Maegashira elevator fare ever since. Add to that if Hokutoriki does what I think he does, and many of you can probably guess what I am eluding to then I am glad he never won that yusho.

[Tumppi 0]

In hindsight Hakuho helped prevent a travesty of Sumo as the "one hit wonder" Hoku has since provided with us with his less than distinguished Maegashira elevator fare ever since. Add to that if Hokutoriki does what I think he does, and many of you can probably guess what I am eluding to then I am glad he never won that yusho.

Could you give me a hint?

Edited November 25, 2005 by Tumppi

[AOZORA 0]

In hindsight Hakuho helped prevent a travesty of Sumo as the "one hit wonder" Hoku has since provided with us with his less than distinguished Maegashira elevator fare ever since. Add to that if Hokutoriki does what I think he does, and many of you can probably guess what I am eluding to then I am glad he never won that yusho.

(In a state of confusion...) WELL said. Totally agree with that.

For ShunKETSU, yeah it was kinda shame. (Blushing...)

[Asashosakari 16,980]

In hindsight Hakuho helped prevent a travesty of Sumo as the "one hit wonder" Hoku has since provided with us with his less than distinguished Maegashira elevator fare ever since. Add to that if Hokutoriki does what I think he does, and many of you can probably guess what I am eluding to then I am glad he never won that yusho.

Could you give me a hint?

Looks like the eluding worked. (In a state of confusion...)

Seriously though, throwaway Maegashira yusho = travesty of sumo? Nobody except statheads (and Hokutoriki and his fans, of course, should there be any) ultimately would have cared any differently even if Hokutoriki had won that yusho after his improbable run - just like this henka by Shunketsu will be a total non-story in a matter of days. Worst thing ever in years of watching sumo, puhleeze.

Edited November 25, 2005 by Asashosakari

[Kashunowaka 269]

Now wait just a minute.

Did Shunketsu know that this was Kotonowaka's last bout? Would Kotonowaka really be allowed to compete if he had already announced his retirement? I have always been under the impression that this would be a no-no. It would never be fair to let a retired rikishi participate in the basho. Correct me if I am wrong.

So why would it be bad, unethical, shameful etc for lower maegashira Shunketsu to do a henka against his opponent, just because he happens to be old Kotonowaka?

[QttP 0]

In hindsight Hakuho helped prevent a travesty of Sumo as the "one hit wonder" Hoku has since provided with us with his less than distinguished Maegashira elevator fare ever since.

That's another very legitimate (although, in my opinion, very stupid) way to see the situation. Why I think it's very stupid? Because I (apparently, as most others) don't think that one-hit-wonders have no right for their moments of glory.

A yusho is the result of one's outstanding performance throughout a single basho, no more, no less. There is no rule that says that to be written in the history books as a yusho winner one needs to be posting top results constantly.

[Jakusotsu 4,993]

Regarding that Hakuho-Hoku bout in question, Hokutoriki literally asked for that henka. Not the case with Kotonowaka today, who was just his usual, clumsy self. He has been prone to small guys swirling around him for quite some time now, but it was still a pitiful last appearance.

[Zuikakuyama 1]

Kotonowaka is one of the more frequent users of henka. I don't see why he should not get a dose of his own medicine.

Also, I doubt that Shunketsu knew he was retiring for sure. None of the announcers indicated that the bout would be his last. It was only after the bout that they reported the intai. I think most people expected that he would at least finish the basho, as Sadogatake is allowed to finish the basho before retiring.

[QttP 0]

Regarding that Hakuho-Hoku bout in question, Hokutoriki literally asked for that henka.

How, pray tell?

[Zenjimoto 39]

It's easy for us armchair rikishi who don't live and breathe the blood, sweat, and tears of life in Makuuchi every day of our lives to huff and puff about Shunketsu's stunt. He made the mistake of turning his fortune the wrong way by changing his shikona :-) At M13, he has 9 losses, and must win all remaining bouts to cling on to Makuuchi. He henka'd Kitazakura yesterday, and no one seemed to mind. He doesn't wanna fall to Juryo, and is desperate, nothing too unusual in that... for all that matters to him, he could care less about Kotonowaka going intai, except wishing Sadogatake Oyakata had been born one day earlier :-) Now, Kisenosato gets the fusensho (Nodding yes...) The realities of sumo life aren't always the ideals that we would like to read into everything that happens on and off the dohyo. It's a tough life, especially for the journeymen - to them, another banzuke spot as Makuuchi is an essential part of earning their living :-)

Kotonowaka will be missed. Definitely one of the dumbest scenarios for a legend to retire, and one of the things to chalk up as sumo's unnecessary idiosyncracies that I can do without. Big deal if he were to be a player-coach for a few more basho! Oh well... the banzuke is getting younger. I'll be watching who follows. :-)

Cheers!

Zenjimoto

[Hashira 0]

Regarding that Hakuho-Hoku bout in question, Hokutoriki literally asked for that henka.

How, pray tell?

pretty sure he's referring to Hokutoriki's "head-down, straight-ahead" plowing sumo of that basho.

but there's no reason to suggest that Hoku winning one yusho then fading into obscurity would be such a travesty to sumo. the reason I would vote for Hakuho's being worse is that it was at a time when more people were watching, and it was a chance for sumo to improve its image. Im not saying that he should have let Hoku win, fulfilling some sort of guy-from-small-town cinderella story for the yusho, but it could have at least been a better match that was shown over and over again on the nationwide newscasts. Shunketsu's henka was bad and i think a bit disrespectful, but hakuho's was potentially damaging to sumo's overall popularity

Edited November 25, 2005 by Hashira

[Guest samoayama]

Seeing sumo as staged drama in sports I deeply regret this final bout of my most admired hero Kotonowaka.

To the purists its a shame for the present most senior rikishi to have a last appearance of that class and an opponent that won with a "coward-kimarite"

But what about the average sumo fan: he won the hearts of the crowd and mine again this way.

Whenever there is another henka we will immediately remember the great Kotonowaka and his last bout.

So spectecular his last fight so intensive we will rember him in the future.

[Hashira 0]

To the purists its a shame for the present most senior rikishi to have a last appearance of that class and an opponent that won with a "coward-kimarite"

But what about the average sumo fan: he won the hearts of the crowd and mine again this way.

Whenever there is another henka we will immediately remember the great Kotonowaka and his last bout.

So spectecular his last fight so intensive we will rember him in the future.

welcome to the forum

can't say that I agree with you really, well at all, but anyway welcome to the forum Samaoyama!

[Doitsuyama 1,156]

I'm agreeing with Zenjimoto. Look, Kotonowaka has his fixed and not too shabby income as oyakata secured until he is 65, and after that retirement pensions. Shunketsu on the other hand is not even sure to live on as oyakata after his active career. He has just 16 basho as sekitori so far and this is just his 4th basho in makuuchi. And he isn't getting any younger as he is already 29. Until reaching minimum qualification to stay as oyakata he will have to stay more. What were those qualifications exactly again nowadays, can anyone tell me? Oh, and then there's the matter of getting a kabu which won't be easy in the next years. Kotonowaka just gets one for free from his father-in-law.

[Kintamayama 41,286]

Shunketsu 4-9 (over Kotonowaka by okuridashi)

--------------------------------------------------------

(Becoming Kotomitsuki's last opponent before announcing the retirement)

"I heard it as a rumour. I feel a great honour to have been able to face him on his last bout."

For the millionth time, this is a total non-issue. Not one oyakata commented on it, nobody had anything to say about it, but some foreign fans keep coming back to this. Shunketsu was not apologising for it. This was how he chose to go about and try to win. Someone with 21 years of experience in Sumo comes to expect this, especially from someone so much lighter than him. Kotonowaka knew this was his last bout, regardless of what everyone else says. Watch it on Dale's site. Watch how after he overruns Shunketsu, he stands for a few quasi-seconds with his back to Shunketsu-a few milliseconds of acknowleding that it's over, before half-walking out by himself.N obody cares, people- some foreign fans are more religious than the Pope. It's a total non-issue.

Edited November 25, 2005 by Kintamayama

[Tetsuzukiyama 0]

For the millionth time, this is a total non-issue.

I've got to chime with that. Sure, at first I was upset that he had his face slapped and his butt fondled before it was over. Later I got to thinking about how it was still A Match. A real match where Shunketsu gave him the full respect of an all-out henka and Sadogatake was barreling ahead full blast to smush him. Can we call him that yet? Anyway, he kept his feet on the dohyo the whole time and even though Asashoryu may not like it the Henka is still an important part of sumo.

I say good match, way to go Old Timer and I hope you're a meaner Oyakata than you look because I'd hire you as my babysitter!

Oh, and other thread points: 1) The announcer sure sounded like he knew that the big guy was retiring. 2) Hokutoriki was SOOO asking for it, shame on the first 14 for just standing there

Tetsuzukiyama

http://bernie.users.geeky.net

[Zentoryu 154]

For the millionth time, this is a total non-issue. Not one oyakata commented on it, nobody had anything to say about it, but some foreign fans keep coming back to this. Shunketsu was not apologising for it. This was how he chose to go about and try to win. Someone with 21 years of experience in Sumo comes to expect this, especially from someone so much lighter than him. Kotonowaka knew this was his last bout, regardless of what everyone else says. Watch it on Dale's site. Watch how after he overruns Shunketsu, he stands for a few quasi-seconds with his back to Shunketsu-a few milliseconds of acknowleding that it's over, before half-walking out by himself.N obody cares, people- some foreign fans are more religious than the Pope. It's a total non-issue.

I couldn't agree more. In fact the general reaction both here and on the SML in particular is somewhat surprising to me.

Some people are acting like he just commited a crime against humanity, or like he is the epitomy of evil for what he did. He's been described as someone who has "revealed his true nature," and "should be watched carefully from now on". I mean geez, why don't we throw him in jail or something so we can save the world from this awful, awful person.

And Moti is right on when he says its only the gaijin fans making a big stink about this. They are taking this far, far, far, more seriously than the rikishi, the oyakata, or the Japanese themselves, who haven't made a peep about it.

Edited November 26, 2005 by Zentoryu

[Naganoyama 5,467]

How I love this forum. Everyone cares so much about sumo that they get into a righteous fervour about everything.

Shame our much-loved Kotonowaka went out on a bit of a low after 21 years, but really no disaster. Hey why not try and remember other great bouts of his past.

For most rikishi, their sumo deteriorates as they come up to retirement. Their strength diminishes, their reactions slow. Also, as the big man was aware this was his last bout, giving it extra poignancy for him, he may well have been slightly nervous, as of someone going into a change of life. He probably wasn't in his best shape to win.

I don't think anyone needs to hate Shunketsu. I am sure Kotonowaka doesn't.

[Kashunowaka 269]

And let's not forget that 9 rikishi out of 10 end their career with a loss. I just made up that figure. It's probably more.

[Asashosakari 16,980]

And let's not forget that 9 rikishi out of 10 end their career with a loss.

You mean the fusenpai post-intai announcement?

Edited November 26, 2005 by Asashosakari

[Kashunowaka 269]

And let's not forget that 9 rikishi out of 10 end their career with a loss.

You mean the fusenpai post-intai announcement?

Doh.

[Asashosakari 16,980]

Doh.

Sorry. B-) I'm actually still not sure what you meant. If you're talking about regular final bouts, I doubt the number is as high as 9 out of 10, both for former/current sekitori as well as across all rikishi.

Edited November 26, 2005 by Asashosakari

[Zuikakuyama 1]

Getting off topic a bit . .

Kotonowaka is probably one of the luckest sumotori there is in terms of his future earning prospects, so I don't feel sorry for him at all.

He will inherit one of the strongest heya with the likes of oshu, mickey and shogiku and others on the makushita ranks, which essentially guarantees his income for the next 5-10 years, so he has a great head start on everyone else starting a new heya.

All this without him putting in anything substantial in sumo terms (i.e., a mediocre guy who did not fulfill expectations), except for longevity.

Contrast him with guys with Kotonishiki, Kotogaume, Kotokaze, etc. who contributed more to the success of the Sadogatake heya both in terms of prestige and money, but having to scramble for their own kabu/heyas, or even with Takanohana and Takatoriki who inherited weak heyas which they have to rebuild.

So this little incident is not even a speed bump on his road to sumo success. If there can ever be a super succcessful sumo story, his is it.