Banzuke Surfing Kyushu 2005

[Doitsuyama 1,194]

I don't think it is that much fun to play on after reaching sanyaku. Ok, maybe setting sekiwake as the goal, but even this is suspect. It is practically impossible to get to ozeki, because ozeki promotions aren't that frequent and come up from sekiwake east most of the time anyway (which makes it impossible to select it). It even is difficult to stay at ozeki... And floating around isn't that much fun. Ok, what makes some reason is to continue the game and take all players out who have reached sanyaku, building a list of "finishers".

[Asashosakari 19,760]

It's not about me. It's about watching the picture as a whole. Wouldn't it be nice to see how these various members scatter across the banzuke? Even with the current rules, there's no guarantee to stay in Sanyaku. I'd like to examine the dynamics first before flushing the playground. Let's not waste this opportunity. We could still settle for an annual winner if necessary, but I think the prospect of a long term career is actually more rewarding and motivating.

I guess I just don't see what's interesting about approximating something like Tamanoshima's career in a game. Once a player reaches sanyaku, things will get incredibly boring for him/her IMHO, since you're turning Banzuke Surfing into Banzuke Staying. Getting to Ozeki is certainly nearly impossible, so there's no goal left. There's also not much of a goal now for players who are two or three divisions below the leader, which I presume is at least part of the reason for Randomitsuki running a second round from Hatsu.

I suppose there could be a point to leaving the first game open until more people have reached sanyaku (so as to establish a ranking of players, not just a winner). At any rate, given that even Oshirokita is still at least a year away from reaching sanyaku (probably a lot longer than a year, even, since you can't ride one huge talent all the way), that's kind of a moot point at this time.

Edit: Well, d'oh. (Nodding yes...) Doitsuyama managed to say exactly the same things in fewer words, and did so faster than me.

Edit #2:

It even is difficult to stay at ozeki...

Pretty much impossible even, as long as shin-Ozeki are ranked last... Edited November 27, 2005 by Asashosakari

[Jakusotsu 6,063]

It even is difficult to stay at ozeki... And floating around isn't that much fun.

I totally agree with the first statement: getting to Ozeki is very hard (or even lucky), and remaining Ozeki is next to impossible. However, I differ on the second part: that floating around is exactly what I'd like to watch and examine. But maybe it's just me...

[Jakusotsu 6,063]

Another idea:

As soon as one player reaches Sekiwake, he'd be introduced to the Hall of Fame and would have to start from scratch next time, but the field as a whole would be kept alive. The long term goal would be to have the most entries in the Hall of Fame, and the one getting there fastest could get a sansho.

[Randomitsuki 2,848]

Another idea:

As soon as one player reaches Sekiwake, he'd be introduced to the Hall of Fame and would have to start from scratch next time, but the field as a whole would be kept alive. The long term goal would be to have the most entries in the Hall of Fame, and the one getting there fastest could get a sansho.

While the idea sounds nice on first sight, I think that many players would not be satisfied with it. I assume that many players play in order to win (or at least to improve in the standings). If Oshirokita wins the first round and is allowed to start a second cycle some players might be dissatisfied that they are trailing him forever. I don't think this is a great incentive, especially for newcomers to the game.

I will definitely start a second wave by Hatsu because some players found the idea of a "stable" quite nice. And it gives a new chance for those who blew it in the first wave.

As to the ending of the first wave, we should see how the participation develops. I could imagine not to finish the game immediately after the first player reaches sanyaku. Maybe others should also have the opportunity to arrive at the finish line. But then again, I would not want to indefinitely chart those players who take Banzuke Surfing just for the experience of floating through the ranks, irrespective of whether it moves them up or down.

[Jakusotsu 6,063]

I assume that many players play in order to win (or at least to improve in the standings).

Can't argue with that. But "improving in the standings" doesn't go well with being put back to square one. Not much improvement in starting over from Jonokuchi in my eyes. Imagine a player who would need twice as many basho as Oshirokita to reach Juryo, but who will never even come close because the game is reset everytime he's half way through. Frustrating, isn't it? This player would be doomed to bet on dark horses forever.

However, as all of You said before, it's far too early to judge. Might still be over a year until someone finally reaches Sanyaku - let's wait and see! (Lifting weights...)

[Zentoryu 154]

However, I differ on the second part: that floating around is exactly what I'd like to watch and examine.

I disagree. To play the game the way you have suggested would bore me to tears, hence I would no longer participate. There has to be a finish line someplace, otherwise the game becomes aimless and pointless.

[Itachi 396]

[iIRC, it was written that this round will go on until one reaches sanyaku. The one is declared the winner then.

Confirmed. The game is over as soon as someone (or should I say Oshirokita?) reaches sanyaku.

But here is the good news: at Hatsu Basho starts a parallel second round, nicknamed "Banzuke Surfing: A New Wave" where everybody starts from Jonokuchi again. Stay tuned!

Thanks Randomitsuki! I was hoping for parallel waves so we could all form a bit of a stable of our surfers starting from successive years.

As for the game ending at Sanyaku discussion, I don't mind having succussful careers retired upon reaching sanyaku (perhaps they could continue to be listed in the records as toshiyori?) however for those who would prefer to play on with their successful waves while avoiding the futility of selecting sekiwake ranked lower than their previous selections, why not adjust the selection rules for those ranked sanyaku?

What I mean is that once one (Oshirokita) reaches sanyaku, they would be free to select the same rikishi as well as any rank lower. This way, they could ride an Ozeki candidate through promotion and stay with them once promoted to Ozeki (if they so choose). I'm sure Oshirokita and other standouts in the game will eventually acheive Yokozuna status and keep a Yokozuna in their stable until perhaps their Yokozuna retires.

There are different promotional rules for NSK rikshi at the sanyaku level so why not for this game?

As for the second wave, I am looking forward to selecting a fresh recruit to be mentored by whatever Makushita rikishi I end up with from my first wave of surfing. Will Maenoyu be ranked below Wakanoho?

[Asashosakari 19,760]

What I mean is that once one (Oshirokita) reaches sanyaku, they would be free to select the same rikishi as well as any rank lower. This way, they could ride an Ozeki candidate through promotion and stay with them once promoted to Ozeki (if they so choose). I'm sure Oshirokita and other standouts in the game will eventually acheive Yokozuna status and keep a Yokozuna in their stable until perhaps their Yokozuna retires.

To be blunt: why bother? Both your and Jakusotsu's ideas would be trying to turn the game into something that is (at most) interesting to observe, but not interesting to play, except for a very small handful of players. There's no stopping you or anyone to make whatever private "surfing rules" you see fit, if you choose to continue the game beyond its natural finish. But all this has nothing to do with providing a game that tries to be attractive to as many players as possible while still being easy for Randomitsuki to administrate (and not filled with exceptions and rule hacks, which tend to kill otherwise interesting games). Do you think he's going to care to continue running the game just for a couple of guys who insist on making it to Ozeki?

At any rate, if you're looking for some guys whose careers it might be interesting to follow, there are 700+ to choose from in real sumo. I honestly fail to see the attraction of following somebody else's cyber-rikishi career just for its own sake.

Edited November 27, 2005 by Asashosakari

[Asashosakari 19,760]

But "improving in the standings" doesn't go well with being put back to square one. Not much improvement in starting over from Jonokuchi in my eyes. Imagine a player who would need twice as many basho as Oshirokita to reach Juryo, but who will never even come close because the game is reset everytime he's half way through. Frustrating, isn't it? This player would be doomed to bet on dark horses forever.

You're assuming that the same player(s) would do well in subsequent waves. Why? Maybe somebody who was unlucky enough to bet on a 1-6 rikishi at some point in the first round and fell behind will turn out to be the star player of round two.

[Zenjimoto 40]

Personally I'd have no problem with who ever reaches sanyaku to begin "Wave II" and surf that (alone, as it were, until more players reach sanyaku of Wave I), sort of a spherical system that allows for the game to run indefinitely with more and more waves... the really good players can aspire to catch the next wave, while the not-so-lucky ones can still try their luck without having to start over all the time before even getting close to getting somewhere they can actually RECOGNIZE some names they are picking :-)

And who says that the Wave I players may not get a chance to catch up into Wave II and so on in the future? Oshirokita can't get lucky ALL the time! (Lifting weights...) Or can he? (Lifting weights...) Hell, if we aren't good enough to catch up with him, then I have no problem with him being the eternal leader of this game, but we WILL get him sooner or later... all we need is the chance! And if we start over, we don't get the chance (Exercising...)

I would find the spherical Waves system with continuous gameplay the most interesting variant. I feel a bit empty considering that I have to start in Jonokuchi again, just because "somebody" reaches sanyaku, just when things were getting more interesting... (Punk rocker...)

Cheers

Zenjimoto

[Asashosakari 19,760]

I would find the spherical Waves system with continuous gameplay the most interesting variant. I feel a bit empty considering that I have to start in Jonokuchi again, just because "somebody" reaches sanyaku, just when things were getting more interesting... (Lifting weights...)

By that logic, wouldn't an eternal Sumo Games World Championship system be much better than the annual system you're using right now? Sure, nobody would ever actually "win" anything, but at least everybody keeps their theoretical chance to catch up to Flohru and Doitsuyama at some point, right?

Seriously though, the fact is that an eternal game is not a competitive game. The only person you end up playing against is yourself, since it simply doesn't matter in the long run what anyone else does. If that floats your boat, you don't need Randomitsuki to run it for you, you can just do it on your own. Meanwhile, I'll stick to Mahjong solitaire for when I want to play something without any opponents...

Edited November 28, 2005 by Asashosakari

[Zenjimoto 40]

By that logic, wouldn't an eternal Sumo Games World Championship system be much better than the annual system you're using right now? Sure, nobody would ever actually "win" anything, but at least everybody keeps their theoretical chance to catch up to Flohru and Doitsuyama at some point, right?

That's what the Super Banzuke is for (Lifting weights...)

[Asashosakari 19,760]

By that logic, wouldn't an eternal Sumo Games World Championship system be much better than the annual system you're using right now? Sure, nobody would ever actually "win" anything, but at least everybody keeps their theoretical chance to catch up to Flohru and Doitsuyama at some point, right?

That's what the Super Banzuke is for (Lifting weights...)

That's a ranking list though, not a game. If you're envisioning Banzuke Surfing to be akin to a ranking in which one tries to improve, not a game in which one is competing for a goal, fine. I don't find that interesting at all. That's like removing the yusho from Sekitoto and making the game entirely about banzuke advancement. (Or perhaps to even do away with the banzuke completely, and just keep a running win total for every player.) Again, perhaps that's something that's incredibly interesting to observe from outside, but it seriously doesn't strike me as an interesting game to play. Case in point: Does anyone "play" primarily for the improvement of their Super Banzuke position? I doubt it.

Edited November 28, 2005 by Asashosakari

[Zenjimoto 40]

That's a ranking list though, not a game. If you're envisioning Banzuke Surfing to be akin to a ranking in which one tries to improve, not a game in which one is competing for a goal, fine. I don't find that interesting at all. That's like removing the yusho from Sekitoto and making the game entirely about banzuke advancement. (Or perhaps to even do away with the banzuke completely, and just keep a running win total for every player.) Again, perhaps that's something that's incredibly interesting to observe from outside, but it seriously doesn't strike me as an interesting game to play. Case in point: Does anyone "play" primarily for the improvement of their Super Banzuke position? I doubt it.

As someone who has sadly never won ANY major game Yusho, I can safely say, YES, I AM playing solely for banzuke advancement :-)

The name of the game is: "Banzuke Surfing" (Punk rocker...) That means, you try to advance yourself on the banzuke, right? (Exercising...) That is what this game is about (Exercising...) It's not "Reach Sanyaku and Win" (Lifting weights...) (Lifting weights...)

Cheers

Zenjimoto

Edited November 28, 2005 by Zenjimoto

[Zentoryu 154]

It's not "Reach Sanyaku and Win"

Sorry.

The whole point of the game is to "reach sanyaku first and win".

This is a race to a goal, which is being the first to Sanyaku.

from Randomitsuki's RULES POST:

9. A new game cycle begins at some distant point in the future, viz. when the best player has surfed all the way up to Sanyaku.

What you're proposing is akin to telling a race car driver who has a big lead heading into the final lap of the race that your going to add another 100 laps to give every one else a chance to catch up...

BTW, you really need to knock it off with the excessive smiley face usage...

Edited November 28, 2005 by Zentoryu

[ragerkawa 0]

It's not "Reach Sanyaku and Win"

Sorry.

The whole point of the game is to "reach sanyaku first and win".

This is a race to a goal, which is being the first to Sanyaku.

from Randomitsuki's RULES POST:

9. A new game cycle begins at some distant point in the future, viz. when the best player has surfed all the way up to Sanyaku.

I have never gotten around to playing Banzuke Surfing, although I was planning to do so. It soundied like fun. I don't have a lot of time to devote to games and I am not very good at the ones I play (witness my hanging around the bottom of Rotosumo). To me, as someone who will never reach the top of any game, the idea of a game that stretches over multiple Basho and then just ends (or starts over) is not appealing.

And, as long as we are quoting the rules, we should notice that rule 9, above, says nothing about the old game cycle ending, pnly that a new game cycle will begin.

[Zenjimoto 40]

BTW, you really need to knock it off with the excessive smiley face usage...

:-) (Lifting weights...) Really? (Exercising...) (Lifting weights...)

Hmm, maybe I should also change my avatar to black and white... (Punk rocker...)

Edited November 28, 2005 by Zenjimoto

[Zentoryu 154]

And, as long as we are quoting the rules, we should notice that rule 9, above, says nothing about the old game cycle ending, pnly that a new game cycle will begin.

Point taken...

But if this is the way the game is going to go, than I might as well no longer play it. I can't imagine continuing on and on, over and over, cycle after cycle, without there ever being an end to it, a finish line, or some kind of goal to reach other than floating up and down the banzuke. It just strikes me as absolutely pointless.

[Randomitsuki 2,848]

Here are some clarifications and repetitions.

1. I will definitely start a second, parallel wave next Hatsu Basho. Nobody is forced to participate in it. But everyone will be invited (Applauding...)

2. The game will NOT be over once the first player reaches sanyaku. I will change the old rules post as soon as I have time for it (i.e. later today). Some will have the chance to play on Wave I, but probably not forever. Those who reach sanyaku may continue playing, or they simply do no send picks in which case they are commemorized in some Hall Of Fame-like list.

Maybe something like the New York Marathon (or any other marathon, for that matter) should serve as a role model. Once the first arrives in sanyaku, I will set a limit for other players of the same wave. If we are at this point, the specifications of this limit can be discussed, like

a) the wave continues until a fixed number of players (10 or 20, maybe) have reached sanyaku;

b) the game continues for everyone who has reached a certain rank at that time (maybe Juryo)

c) the game continues for the next few bashos (maybe 3 or 5 or 6).

As stated by Asashosakari in the Aki Banzuke Surfing thread, I guess that many players will go intai from first wave as soon as the second wave starts; and many other players might go intai from first wave as soon as the first player has hit the finish line. So it is too early to set the exact rules once and for all.

Edited November 28, 2005 by Randomitsuki

[Jejima 1,430]

I think it would become confusing (and become less interesting) if you have two banzuke surfing competitions at the same time.

I would suggest that the current round ends when a player reaches Sanyaku. The final positions of all the other players in the game are then noted for the record.

A new round is started the subsequent basho, when we all start from scratch again.

The arguments against....

New players have to start from scratch whilst the round is continuing.... Well, I've played since the start, and I'm stuck in Jonidan, they can compete with me.

When one player approaches sanyaku, it will become less interesting for other players, as they feel they are no longer in the game. Not really, you set your own personal goals. I hope to reach Makushita before the round ends.

There are other points too, but I'm at work, and people are already looking at me strangely. (Applauding...)

Anyways, I'd suggest:-

1. Stick with one game / round / wave at a time

2. End it as soon as some one reaches Sanyaku

3. Start from the start again, with all at the start

[Randomitsuki 2,848]

I think it would become confusing (and become less interesting) if you have two banzuke surfing competitions at the same time.

1. Stick with one game / round / wave at a time

2. End it as soon as some one reaches Sanyaku

3. Start from the start again, with all at the start

It strikes me as a little ignorant if I were to implement your suggestions, given that several players already said that they would not like the first and the second point on your list. The more so, since the evidence you gave for sticking with one wave only is somewhat vague ("confusing" / "less interesting").

There is another reason why I will start a second wave in January. I consider this game to be slightly educational (at least for me, but maybe for others as well). That is I want to become informed, be informed, and stay informed about lower divisions. Now that I surfed into upper Sandanme I noticed that I am less informed about Jonidan, and a second wave will change this quite soon.

[Takamueda 0]

For the second wave I have some suggestions:

1. You don't take one Rikishi, but a team of 4 or 5 from Jonokuchi in the first basho. The Game could be called "Create your own virtual Heya" (CyovH). So there will be no collision with "Banzuke Surfing".

2. You get 5 Jokers for your career. If want to replace a rikishi after a basho, you can use a Joker. You can replace them with every Rikishi ranked lower than the highest ranked Rikishi from your heya, but sd1e as maximum.

3. Retired Rikishis can be replaced with Rikishis from Jonidan without using a Joker.

[Jejima 1,430]

How will the new wave be named to distnguish it from the current one? (Banzuke surfing 2006 perhaps?).

Will the current one have an end, or will it keep on rolling? When someone makes it to Sekiwake, how will their achievement be marked? How will the round be wrapped up?

If noone achieves Sekiwake status with the current wave (and the 2006 one) by January 2007, will you start a third wave then?

Will new players to the game be allowed to join all waves, or just be directed to the latest version?

Will you be having two threads (or more in later years) to keep track of the different waves?

Good luck (truly meant)!