Size(height) of wrestler decreasing?

[hoshidango 0]

We went to a Japanese restaurant the other day and in the washroom they had this 199? annual calendar on the wall with all Makuuchi wrestlers’ drawings with height & weight listed.

I did not take down any of this information, as I was minding own business, but I remember thinking "gee those guys are taller than current guys."

Sorry for the silly anecdotes here. Yet the question is; for last 20 years or so, has the size of Makuuchi or Sekitori wrestlers been increasing/decreasing or staying about the same on average(in terms of height & weight)? Would someone shed the lights on this?

Edited July 30, 2005 by hoshidango

[Jonosuke 28]

I don't have any stats or anything but since they are letting in more shorter rikishis, you may see more of them (with the secondary recruit physical, the minimum height requirement is 167 cm if I recall).

As well since the time Mainoumi put silicone in his head to join, they are letting in those with Makushita Tsukedashi qualification enter without their standard height or weight requirement - Takekaze is one of them.

Edited July 30, 2005 by Jonosuke

[Yubiquitoyama 4]

I'm not checking any records here so I might remember incorrectly, but I think I came to the conclusion a couple of years ago that the average weight has increased most of the time (except the last few years after a few big guys retired, but the decrease is still not too significant) and that the height increased up until around 1990-1995 after which the average height of sekitori has decreased a half to one centimetres. I think though (without actually knowing) that the height decrease is bigger down the ranks. I looked in an old "Sumo" from 1990 and reacted on the amount of tall Sandanme and Makushita rikishi at that time (that is, figures in a list rather than photos). The fact that so many is so much heavier than they were say 15 years ago probably affects visual appearence quite a lot though.

[sekitori 492]

Between November, 1996 and January, 1997 one event occurred which by itself decreased the average weight of makunouchi rikishi by about 3 kg (7lb). Konishiki retired. I still can't believe how huge he was (and apparently still is).

[_the_mind_ 0]

how much did konishki weigh? he retired right before i was watching sumo so i never saw him fight.

however if one were to compare the time where the 3 big hawaiians where in to the time after the time they all left, there has to be a change in weight and possibly a lesser change in height. eventhough from what i gather about konishki being very heavy, i was not under the impression that he was very tall like Akebono and Musa are. but the 3 together have to pull the average weight up alot. at least among makauuchi fighters

[sekitori 492]

how much did konishki weigh? he retired right before i was watching sumo so i never saw him fight.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The heaviest weight I ever saw listed for him was about 285 kg or 625 lb. When he retired, it was closer to 275 kg. He had very bad knees for several years and all that extra weight made them that much worse. I read that his right knee was apparently beyond surgical repair. He had other ailments as well, including gout, an embolism in his left calf, and an ulcer. At the end of his career, it was painful just watching him try to move around. Whatever mobility he once had was now gone. It's to his great credit that he hung on for as long as he did.

The heaviest current makunouchi rikishis according to the latest figures I've seen are Miyabiyama, Kaio, Kotonowaka, and Iwakiyama who each weigh from 175 to 178 kg. When someone weighs 100 kg more than they do, he's big--VERY big.

[hoshidango 0]

Thanks guys for the comments. So perhaps there has been some reduction of height, definetely in lower ranks, but possibly in upper ranks also... I find it sort of ironic because I vaguely remember they(sumo people) used to say things like "anyone shorter than 173cm or so was too dangerous to join sumo and will never make it to any good"; obviously they were proven wrong.

I even think often shorter(& stocky) wrestlers are at the advantage than taller guys with high "centre of gravity"(say 195cm plus), I wonder if we will ever have yokozuna with the height of 173cm or shorter in the near future...

And another interesting thing to me(perhaps obvious to some) is the height and weight do not seem to affect the ranking if the wrong guy is equipped with them…

Edited July 31, 2005 by hoshidango

[Asojima 2,870]

Can any of the stats gurus come up with a fighting height and weight for Washuyama (Dewanoumi Oyakata)? During the mid-seventies, he was a peanut doing battle among a herd of makuuchi elephants. I am pretty sure that he too had to get a height waiver. He was a great technician and a crowd favorite.

[Doitsuyama 1,173]

Can any of the stats gurus come up with a fighting height and weight for Washuyama (Dewanoumi Oyakata)?  During the mid-seventies, he was a peanut doing battle among a herd of makuuchi elephants.  I am pretty sure that he too had to get a height waiver.  He was a great technician and a crowd favorite.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have him listed at 174 cm / 112 kg.

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

The heaviest weight I ever saw listed for him was about 285 kg or 625 lb. When he retired, it was closer to 275 kg. He had very bad knees for several years and all that extra weight made them that much worse. I read that his right knee was apparently beyond surgical repair. He had other ailments as well, including gout, an embolism in his left calf, and an ulcer. At the end of his career, it was painful just watching him try to move around. Whatever mobility he once had was now gone. It's to his great credit that he hung on for as long as he did.

The heaviest current makunouchi rikishis according to the latest figures I've seen are Miyabiyama, Kaio, Kotonowaka, and Iwakiyama who each weigh from 175 to 178 kg. When someone weighs 100 kg more than they do, he's big--VERY big.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I saw KONISHIKI on J-TV a year or so back, and he was talking about how hard he was working at dieting and losing weight to become healthier, and while he was giving the interview at home, he was snacking off the plate of meat that had been prepared for shabu-shabu or whatever was the evening's menu...the meal hadn't started yet, the meat wasn't cooked yet... (Showing respect...)

[Asojima 2,870]

Can any of the stats gurus come up with a fighting height and weight for Washuyama (Dewanoumi Oyakata)?

[Doitsuyama 1,173]

That puts him close to Ishide's size.  He seemed to be shorter than that.  Anyway, he sure was fun to watch.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, much shorter than that wasn't possible as the height limit was at 173 cm (?). Edited July 31, 2005 by Doitsuyama

[sekitori 492]

Ever hear of a rikishi named Ishinriki? He reached Juryo 1 for the Kyushu basho in 1989. I don't think I've ever heard of a smaller sekitori. His height was 175 cm (5' 8 3/4") and at Juryo 1 he weighed 81 kg (179 lb). His weight was as low as 78 kg while he was Juryo 5 during the previous Nagoya basho. I guess he thought he needed to gain more weight. For awhile he was all the way up to 86 kg. but he probably felt that all that bulk slowed him down. (I am not worthy...) Compared to him, Mainoumi looked like a giant.

[Guest GreatCornholio]

I could've sworn I saw Big K listed at 298 or 299kg at a charity tournament in Kobe around 1995. That almost convinced me that I had my kg -> lbs conversion # off. Then I saw him.

(I am not worthy...)

I was actually thinking similar thoughts on this thread - there just don't seem to be as many giants in Sumo as there used to be. Part of it could be lowering the height requirement. Could part of it also be technical advancement? Taka and Asa seem to be more technical wrestlers. Maybe the extra size isn't the advantage it used to be?

[Sasanishiki 57]

Well, not wanting to be too simplistic, but basically Mongolians have replaced Hawaiians. I would see this as a move from larger frames to smaller, more technical foreign rikishi. A small proportion, I know, but an indication of something no doubt.

[_the_mind_ 0]

Well, not wanting to be too simplistic, but basically Mongolians have replaced Hawaiians. I would see this as a move from larger frames to smaller, more technical foreign rikishi. A small proportion, I know, but an indication of something no doubt.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i agree. its being more technically sound in your ability to do more then one dimentional sumo. the mongalians seem to have taken over in regaruds to their ability to do very well and shape what the opponents must be able to do, or just be willing to lose to most of them. take Ama for example. very small, but fights much bigger then his size and is more technically sound in how to administer an apponent. a second comeing of the mamoth rikishi might come again, but not right now. it would have to be in a time when the technical ability of the average rikishi is not so good that a super powerful oshidashi could over come it, like with Moose.

[Guest kambo]

The 4 Tallest Rikishi in history are:

Ilkezuki Geitazaemon ( Tempo era 1830 - 1844 ) 229 cm

Ozora Shikizaemon ( Bunsei era 1818 - 1830 ) 228 cm

Ryumon Kogoro ( Bunsei era 1818 - 1830 ) 226 cm

Shakagatake Kumoemon ( Meiwa era 1764 - 1771 ) 223 cm

Edited August 4, 2005 by kambo

[hoshidango 0]

About Washuyama; I do recall he was hailed to be very small and doing well for his size, but somehow I feel current Ishide(if he is about the same size) does not seem to feel "way smaller" than others, more like norm size range amongst lower ranking sekitoris(well Wash was hovering ranks of lower to upper maegashira mostly though). There is now a bunch of other shorties like Shirairi, Yoshikaze, Toyonoshima, Takekaze etc...

Another short one who was fun to watch was Tochitsurugi; 169-171cm(don't remember the weight), he was doing a bit like Asanowaka's sumo(with less pulling).

The recent trend seems to be those short or light weight sekitoris tend to hold ranks by doing more regular sumo(examples being Ama, Toyonoshima, Ishide), as opposed to engaging in evasive sumo(similar to recent Asanowaka style);

To me having mostly big guys and very few small guys holding sekitori ranks by beating bigger guys is more interesting to watch than whole bunch of smaller guys doing well….

And I do want to see couple of 210cm plus sekitoris; well supposed to be there was three of them(don't know what the rank is) on 1830 eh?

[Chiyozakura 130]

Those giants were mostly not real rikishi. I doubt they would have stood a chance to survive in Makuuchi for long.

They just appeared on the banzuke and appeared as freaks in the dohyo-iri, just like fat kids and thus became popular. Today we could call it the Takamisakari-effect...

[Yubiquitoyama 4]

Those giants were mostly not real rikishi. I doubt they would have stood a chance to survive in Makuuchi for long.

They just appeared on the banzuke and appeared as freaks in the dohyo-iri, just like fat kids and thus became popular. Today we could call it the Takamisakari-effect...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Except Shakagatake who was indeed a real rikishi (although he was the first really giant rikishi who was part of the reason for the rest appearing in dohyo-iri later-on) who died very young but got to be the early great rival of Tanikaze.

[Asojima 2,870]

About Washuyama; I do recall he was hailed to be very small and doing well for his size, but somehow I feel current Ishide(if he is about the same size) does not seem to feel "way smaller" than others, more like norm size range amongst lower ranking sekitoris(well Wash was hovering ranks of lower to upper maegashira mostly though).  There is now a bunch of other shorties like Shirairi, Yoshikaze, Toyonoshima, Takekaze etc... 

I was very surprised that Ishide and Washuyama were almost the same size. Wash clearly stood out as being much smaller than any of his fellow makuuchi members, while Ishide does not. It might be interesting if one of the stats gurus would go back three or four decades and pull out the average makuuchi height and weight for a selected basho (Hatsu?) at a four or five year interval.

[Asashosakari 18,783]

FWIW, I think what prevents this perception of Ishide being a particularly small Makuuchi rikishi is that the heavyweight sekitori, let's say 160+ kg, are mostly concentrated in two areas right now, namely in joi-jin (Iwakiyama, Kaio, Miyabiyama, to some extent Kokkai, Dejima and Tochinonada, and until recently also Kotonowaka), and in Juryo (Toki, Daishodai, Kitazakura, Wakanoyama, Harunoyama, Daimanazuru, Ushiomaru, Takanotsuru).

Suffice it to say that Yoshikaze did look very undersized in his shin-Juryo basho to me, and he's actually a bit heavier than Ishide.

[Guest GreatCornholio]

The 4 Tallest Rikishi in history are:

Ilkezuki Geitazaemon        ( Tempo era  1830 - 1844 )    229 cm

Ozora Shikizaemon            ( Bunsei era  1818 - 1830 )    228 cm

Ryumon Kogoro                ( Bunsei era  1818 - 1830 )    226 cm

Shakagatake Kumoemon    ( Meiwa era    1764 - 1771 )    223 cm

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Can those heights possibly be right? I just can't fathom folks in any country being seven and a half feet tall in those years. Nutritional standards just weren't what they are today.

(Not intending this as an attack on the poster, I am just very surprised)

[Manekineko 200]

Can those heights possibly be right?  I just can't fathom folks in any country being seven and a half feet tall in those years.  Nutritional standards just weren't what they are today.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hm, I posted some pictures of tallest-ever wrestlers ages back. I think these 4 mentioned above suffered from giantism, a hormonal disorder which indeed makes people grow very tall. They usually suffer from a lot of medical problems and die young... Sumo as a freak-show aspect.

Here's that thread.

[Terarno 46]

A big jaw is typical for people suffering this kind of "disease". They just keep growing, and sometimes surgery is the only way to prevent death at a very young age (30 or 40). George Muresan, basketball player from Roumania, had such surgery while he was already 2m30 tall.

But since those Rikishis only exist through the stories of "witnesses", maybe at this time someone 1m90 tall among an average 1m60 could give birth to stories like "did you see that giant ??", "yeah, he must be at leat 1m90 tall", "oh, maybe 2 meters !!!".

And 300 years later, the guy is 2m26 tall on an internet forum.