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John Gunning

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Man, to think that as of last basho we all thought that Hakurozan has his head on more straight than his older brother.

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I believe this snowball of putting all gaijin rikishi under a microscope and analyzing their every move is totally unjust and unfair. Hell, the dead Mail List is all ablaze with the all-important question if Osh winked during his interview yesterday or not- not a single post about the matches or anything remotely connected, but this gets an avalanche of posts.

The gaijin rikishi are just people with a huge cultural disadvantage trying to adapt. Doh.

Edited by Kintamayama

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(Applauding...)

blood boiling after what i just saw. hakurozan just got driven out in two secs by robocop. robo held him at the edge to stop him falling as is custom and haukurozan shoved him back before doing the same non-bow and ripping off of the sagari as his older brother.

looks like they are trying to take the "worst brothers in sumo" tag from the hanada clan.

They never had any "worst brothers in Sumo" tag while they were active. On the contrary-they were the sole reason for Sumo's big boom in the early 90s.

What came later is a different story.

And, everyone hates losing to Sakari, whatever their background. Everyone gets pissed off. Everyone says so after they lose during interviews. Including Hakurozan. Big deal.

Edited by Kintamayama

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I believe this snowball of putting all gaijin rikishi under a microscope and analyzing their every move is totally unjust and unfair. Hell, the dead Mail Lst is all ablaze with the all-important question if Osh winked during his interview yesterday or not- not a single post about the matches or anything remotely connected, but this gets an avalanche of posts.

Normally I'd agree with you that things are getting blown out of proportion, but Hakurozan's shove really was one of the more rude things I've ever seen inside a dohyo. I'd say the same thing if he was Japanese.

As for the SML...eh, I wondered if anyone still cared about the thing. (Hanged myself...)

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Normally I'd agree with you that things are getting blown out of proportion, but Hakurozan's shove really was one of the more rude things I've ever seen inside a dohyo. I'd say the same thing if he was Japanese.

The microscope thing was a general observation. The latest Hakurozan incident may have been really bad, but it doesn't change what seems to me like a general tendency lately of looking into every gaijin rikishi's mawashi from up close..

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The microscope thing was a general observation. The latest Hakurozan incident may have been really bad, but it doesn't change what seems to me like a general tendency lately of looking into every gaijin rikishi's mawashi from up close..

Lately? Is that really so? How was it when Asashoryu made a name for himself? I wasn't around at the time, but how was it in the days of Konishiki? Akebono?

And is it just gaijin rikishi? Wasn't Takanohana scolded as a young ozeki for spitting on the dohyo? Was Asanowaka gaijin when he didn't bow to Futeno and was called back like a child?

And why should we not discuss these things? Why should we not call rude behaviour when we see it, regardless of nationality of the rikishi?

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Just watched Dale's movie of the Hakurozan-Takamisakari bout and found nothing rude in the way Hakurozan handled Takamisakari. I mean, these are men, and sumo fighters on top of that. Did you expect him to hug Sakari or something?

Also, if this is rude, what about the way Asashoryu gives an extra shove to opponents who are already outside of the dohyo (his bout with Kakizoe this basho being the last case of it)?

You guys are really blowing this out of proportion...

Edited by kotooshu_bulgaria

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I have to agree with kotooshu_bulgaria here. This is blown way out of proportions. The shove from Hakurozan was nothing compared to Asashoryu's knockout swing against Kaikzoe in a decided bout. This is not met equally from the forum members, just look at the reaction back then and now.

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The microscope thing was a general observation. The latest Hakurozan incident may have been really bad, but it doesn't change what seems to me like a general tendency lately of looking into every gaijin rikishi's mawashi from up close..

Lately? Is that really so? How was it when Asashoryu made a name for himself? I wasn't around at the time, but how was it in the days of Konishiki? Akebono?

And is it just gaijin rikishi? Wasn't Takanohana scolded as a young ozeki for spitting on the dohyo? Was Asanowaka gaijin when he didn't bow to Futeno and was called back like a child?

And why should we not discuss these things? Why should we not call rude behaviour when we see it, regardless of nationality of the rikishi?

Yes, I completely agree. This is a forum and while there are a lot of things to discuss, irritating behaviour among rikishi (be they Japanese, Sweish or Martian) is definitely one of them (and obviously one that is popular).

I suppose there have been more gaijin rikishi than Japanese rikishi discussed in this manner which ought to be partly because they are seen as more interesting than Japanese rikishi for many gaijin fans and partly because it's more common they actually do the things that annoy us (simply because they are gaijin and while probably not doing much more than the Japanese rikishi, doing it in a manner that in the Japanese environment sumo resides in is more apparent to us). Even so, rikishi such as Asanowaka, Takamisakari, Takanohana, Kitazakura and definitely more them have definitely been among those most and most criticially scrutinized of late.

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:-|

this issue is not isolated to foreigners in sumo or sumo altogether, its a much greater issue and it relates to SPORTSMANSHIP.

Good sportsmanship and poor sportsmanship. Its as simple as that.

It doesn matter the sport, the race, nationality, creed, religion etc etc most of us know it when we see, its a pragmatic observation.

Whether Sumo has rules, protocols traditions is quite besido the point to ancient creed of being a good sport.

Cricket players who "dont walk" when the know they plainly were out.

Basketball players/ thugs doing their thing last season.

Tennis players who are arrogant conceited you know whats.

I could go on and on about it, its "poor form" whoever does it in whatever sport.

I quickly lose respect for those individuals.

I havent seen Hageagaruzans bout today, so I will reserve judgement on it until I have seen it.

and for what its worth Kakizoe is a shockingly poor loser and a poor sport so when he got a late shove the other day he entirely deserved it, what goes around comes around.

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On the other hand, some people here find it impolite when the winning rikishi is behaviing too patronisticly. Even the looser is strong enough to step back to dohyou without being pulled by the winner. You can look at it anyway you like (Enjoying a beer...)

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Lately? Is that really so? How was it when Asashoryu made a name for himself? I wasn't around at the time, but how was it in the days of Konishiki? Akebono?

And is it just gaijin rikishi? Wasn't Takanohana scolded as a young ozeki for spitting on the dohyo? Was Asanowaka gaijin when he didn't bow to Futeno and was called back like a child?

And why should we not discuss these things? Why should we not call rude behaviour when we see it, regardless of nationality of the rikishi?

I never said anyone should or should not discuss anything. I just said it seems to me the forum lately is coming down hard on the gaijin, a bit exaggerated in my mind. And yes, lately. I don't remember us discussing this too much say a year ago. OTOH, there are far more Makuuchi gaijin rikishi at the present, so..

Edited by Kintamayama

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(Enjoying a beer...)

this issue is not isolated to foreigners in sumo or sumo altogether, its a much greater issue and it relates to SPORTSMANSHIP.

Good sportsmanship and poor sportsmanship. Its as simple as that.

It doesn matter the sport, the race, nationality, creed, religion etc etc most of us know it when we see, its a pragmatic observation.

Whether Sumo has rules, protocols traditions is quite besido the point  to ancient creed of being a good sport.

as ali g would say

"it's cos i is black ain't it"

nationality / race / colour / creed / religion have nothing to do with hakurozan and roho's behaviour. they are just being disrespectful. bringing the fact that they are "gaijin rikishi" into the arguement makes it a race issue (which it is not)

and clouds things.

But lately, these last few days, the criticism is reserved solely for the gaijin. That's all I'm saying. Where's the racism? Forum members are constantly criticizing the gaijin, but neglect to do so when it comes to the Japanese wrestlers, who act rather "disrepectfully" on a daily basis.

Problem is, I don't think any of them are acting disrespectfully. It's not ballet. And yes, the tradition and all that, but still, it's not ballet. Guys get pissed when they lose, even the Japanese, even in Sumo.

Edited by Kintamayama

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It seems that when a man or woman rises above others, they acquire certain dignity. Sumo is no different. Bowing to his opponent after the fight, no matter who won is a clearest sign of selfrespect and dignity. We see almost everyday that all athletes from around the world do it, though in different ways. Iron Mike made a statement after his last fight "I was beaten fairly and squarely".

Joining sumo in their 20s is no excuse because they came from wrestling background, and they know it very well.

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Iron Mike made a statement after his last fight "I was beaten fairly and squarely".

Well that's the first time I've ever heard Mike "your ear looks really tasty" Tyson and sportsmanship mentioned in the same sentence. (Enjoying a beer...)

Edited by Zentoryu

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But lately, these last few days, the criticism is reserved solely for the gaijin. That's all I'm saying. Where's the racism? Forum members are constantly criticizing the gaijin, but neglect to do so when it comes to the Japanese wrestlers, who act rather "disrepectfully" on a daily basis.

Problem is, I don't think any of them are acting disrespectfully. It's not ballet. And yes, the tradition and all that, but still, it's not ballet. Guys get pissed when they lose, even the Japanese, even in Sumo.

The thing is, the performance of the two Ossesstian sumotori in this basho is really the first instance where they have committed an offense in the eyes of some forum members. That is why they are being discussed now seriously for the first time. The behaviors are NEW.

There also has been criticism in the past when Japanese rikishi behaves badly, such as Asanowaka and Kakizoe, and of course Shoryu's habit of giving extra shoves. But they are not being discussed again now because they are now OLD topics. Nothing has changed, so there is really no impetus to discuss them again and again everytime that happens.

You certainly generally do not see anyone defending those prior bad behavior I just cited. But for some reason, it is happening here now, under the banner of "overr-reaction" and "over attention".

At least to me, they fully desreve the criticism being dished out to them. They are simply poor sports in any culture.

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The thing is, the performance of the two Ossesstian sumotori in this basho is really the first instance where they have committed an offense in the eyes of some forum members.  That is why they are being discussed now seriously for the first time.  The behaviors are NEW.

There also has been criticism in the past when Japanese rikishi behaves badly, such as Asanowaka and Kakizoe, and of course Shoryu's habit of giving extra shoves.  But they are not being discussed again now because they are now OLD topics.  Nothing has changed, so there is really no impetus to discuss them again and again everytime that happens. 

You certainly generally do not see anyone defending those prior bad behavior I just cited.  But for some reason, it is happening here now,  under the banner of "overr-reaction" and "over attention". 

At least to me, they fully desreve the criticism being dished out to them.  They are simply poor sports in any culture.

I understand all of what is being said to me (most of it, at least..). The thing is-I totally disagree that this is bad behaviour that has to be dwelled upon, just like I disagreed when Asanowaka, Asashouryuu and others were being "chastised" here for being poor sports. No one gives a hoot, except Ms. Uchidate.. And don't give me the tegatana thing as an example because it's not the same.As an aside, nowhere in the online papers does this "bad behaviour" get even mentioned. Not once. Which to me means we forum members are overreacting a bit. We tend to overglorify all the "good sportsmanship" stuff we hope exist, but in reality, they don't. Of course, Sumo is nothing like other sports in this concern, but it is not a religion either, where everyone has to totally stick to the strict rules. I certainly hope it will remain devoid of all the crap other sports have, but the distance is still great between them. Nobody gives a hoot about it in Japan except for some tiresome jijiis, but we are "holier than thou"..

Am I not entitled to my views? Am I not a member like everyone else?

I will now commit myself to a term of silence and reflect upon fond memories.

Edited by Kintamayama

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I will now commit myself to a term of silence and reflect upon fond memories.

Don't do that! Nobody wants you to do that.

Maybe in this topic, there's no reason to say anything else. But definitely don't leave the forum in a huff! We can't lose more wise people

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(Nodding yes...)

i don't think you need to worry.

Yes. I can't leave me.. If ever the forum terminates, I will be the one turning off the light as I shut the door..

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Am I not entitled to my views? Am I not a member like everyone else?

I will now commit myself to a term of silence and reflect upon fond memories.

your entitled to as much of a view and oppinion as a memeber as you gave me calling me a "typical guijin", which is by the way a racist statement. you should be granted the same tollerence you have been giving, which isnt much....all i did was was voice MY oppinion and ask a few question, and all you did was piss all over it, now your saying why cant you have your oppinion. ironic to say the least. sounds like you are the one with a "holier then thou" attitude to people who dont share your specific view on everything. or even when we have a question about something. you are granted as much tollerence as you are showing. dont expect any if you arent giving any.

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Btw. gaijin (often connected with various adjectives) is a term commonly used by the 'polite Japanese'.

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Am I not entitled to my views? Am I not a member like everyone else?

I will now commit myself to a term of silence and reflect upon fond memories.

your entitled to as much of a view and oppinion as a memeber as you gave me calling me a "typical guijin", which is by the way a racist statement. you should be granted the same tollerence you have been giving, which isnt much....all i did was was voice MY oppinion and ask a few question, and all you did was piss all over it, now your saying why cant you have your oppinion. ironic to say the least. sounds like you are the one with a "holier then thou" attitude to people who dont share your specific view on everything. or even when we have a question about something. you are granted as much tollerence as you are showing. dont expect any if you arent giving any.

BTW, I am getting quite used to Mr/Mss Kintamayama's reputation of policing people's opinion. Apparently, he has no concept that different people can and should have different opinions. Beware, there is even bigger brother, Asashosakari, who might soon be threatening you by posting your real identity (which, i think against the rule of this forum and against any civilized rule), just because you had an opinion of your own.

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BTW, I am getting quite used to Mr/Mss Kintamayama's reputation of policing people's opinion. Apparently, he has no concept that different people can and should have different opinions. Beware, there is even bigger brother, Asashosakari, who might soon be threatening you by posting your real identity (which, i think against the rule of this forum and against any civilized rule), just because you had an opinion of your own.

Wow, talk about something coming out of left field...what on earth can you possibly be referring to here?

Edit: In fact, put up or shut up. Detailed links and quotes showing where I've blackmailed something by threatening to release personal information of them. If you can't do that, I'm going to lobby for you to get banned from the forum. Heatedly disagreeing with me is fine, insulting me is fine, but accusing me of near-criminal behaviour is not.

Edited by Asashosakari

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BTW, I am getting quite used to Mr/Mss Kintamayama's reputation of policing people's opinion. Apparently, he has no concept that different people can and should have different opinions. Beware, there is even bigger brother, Asashosakari, who might soon be threatening you by posting your real identity (which, i think against the rule of this forum and against any civilized rule), just because you had an opinion of your own.

Wow, talk about something coming out of left field...what on earth can you possibly be referring to here?

You should remember your very observant post on the topic about Miyabiyama.

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