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Guest Phishywake

Roho

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i just feel like its not really possible Roho hasnt been told this before. i mean this isnt the first basho he has not bowed in. i guess my point is Taiho must have already told him all this, yet he isnt doing it. .....thats why i was curious of any potential consiquences of this sort of refusal.

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i dont think Gaijin fans make or enforce the rules in sumo

No, but us gaijins tend to watch sumo with different eyes than Japanese fans do. Famously, henka seems to be much less of a deal to the domestic fans.

At any rate, the example of Kakizoe shows that it's not exclusively a problem with foreign rikishi. I hate to play into the hands of the old fuddy-duddys on the Kyokai who'd prefer to throw out foreigners and college rikishi yesterday, but it does sometimes seem that those who didn't have to go through 5+ years of training and advancing up the banzuke are less likely to behave in the expected ways.

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i just feel like its not really possible Roho hasnt been told this before. i mean this isnt the first basho he has not bowed in. i guess my point is Taiho must have already told him all this, yet he isnt doing it. .....thats why i was curious of any potential consiquences of this sort of refusal.

Well, I think it's pretty impossible to answer that question because I don't think there is anyone here who knows how the Kyokai operates internally when it comes to the question of disciplinary problems. I suppose fines could be levied, but that's just a guess on my part.

In the past, giving the offending rikishi a talking to has often been enough to change their ways (Asanowaka's shikiri antics for instance). What they will do if someone refuses to change after being told to do so, at least in this case, remains to be seen.

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but it does sometimes seem that those who didn't have to go through 5+ years of training and advancing up the banzuke are less likely to behave in the expected ways.

this doesnt seem to be true of the mongolians. i cant think of any who doesnt show their respect to the others.

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Well, I think it's pretty impossible to answer that question because I don't think there is anyone here who knows how the Kyokai operates internally when it comes to the question of disciplinary problems. I suppose fines could be levied, but that's just a guess on my part.

In the past, giving the offending rikishi a talking to has often been enough to change their ways (Asanowaka's shikiri antics for instance). What they will do if someone refuses to change after being told to do so, at least in this case, remains to be seen.

thank you for the educated guess. i had no idea what would or could be done. is there no real president for this then? i was just wondering what it would take for the Koykai to kick you out. i mean the fact that this is being allowed to happen means either they arent letting them know firmly enough or they are tollerateing it way too much. after all this is a part of sportsmanship. one of those things where you tell the kids "if you cant play nice with others then you cant play at all"

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this doesnt seem to be true of the mongolians. i cant think of any who doesnt show their respect to the others.

True. Most of the Mongolians joined Ozumo at younger ages though, and then there's the closer cultural proximity. On the other hand, Roho joined at 22, Kokkai and Hakurozan at 20, and Osh shortly before his 20th birthday. And the college rikishi are generally at least 22 when they join, of course.

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i see, so as someone else said before, its just more of a cultural difference....the question is, is this serious enough to make a rule that anyone not from an asian(thus culturally different) country must do 5 years before being able to go to juryo?

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i see, so as someone else said before, its just more of a cultural difference....the question is, is this serious enough to make a rule that anyone not from an asian(thus culturally different) country must do 5 years before being able to go to juryo?

No. you are over-reacting, like a typical gaijin fan..He doesn't bow "correctly" and makes faces after losing-big deal. The Kyokai sees no problem at this juncture so why should you? Hokutouriki, Kakizoe, Wakanoyama, to name a few-these guys are just as bad. It isn't a gaijin rikishi thing. It's us gaijin with a guilty conscience fearing maybe our counterparts may "taint" Sumo, God forbid.

Sore losers. You can't teach sore losers to be good losers, ever, regardless of their cultural background or their fast women. You can only try to make them go through the motions.

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No. you are over-reacting, like a typical gaijin fan..

uh, i didnt start this thread nor do i have a problem with it. i was responding to how everyone else in this thread is acting like he is committing murder on the doh-yo. way to steriotype me. id have thought you a little more open-minded then that as to lump everyone in to one big catigory, apparently not.

....i like how the one new poster who said he wasnt going to post anymore and leave and you said he shouldnt leave and deprive us of his wisdom, yet when i say something you call me a typical gaijin. this is what passes for moderating here? i am truely dissapointed. especially sense i only ASKED questions. ill keep that in mind in the future. thank you kindly for your tollerence

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No. you are over-reacting, like a typical gaijin fan..

uh, i didnt start this thread nor do i have a problem with it. i was responding to how everyone else in this thread is acting like he is committing murder on the doh-yo. way to steriotype me. id have thought you a little more open-minded then that as to lump everyone in to one big catigory, apparently not.

....i like how the one new poster who said he wasnt going to post anymore and leave and you said he shouldnt leave and deprive us of his wisdom, yet when i say something you call me a typical gaijin. this is what passes for moderating here? i am truely dissapointed. especially sense i only ASKED questions. ill keep that in mind in the future. thank you kindly for your tollerence

I am a typical gaijin fan myself. Where is the lumping? You are the only one on this thread who is asking about punishments and such, when there is no real reason for it. Rohou is annoying? Sure he is. But from here to fine them or whatever is a long road. And I am definitely not open-minded. I happen to think you are a bit over-reacting, that's all. And yes, it is a shame that "this" is what passes for a moderator, although I am not voicing my opinion as a moderator, but as a regular member of this forum. I've been trying to resign for ages so I can give some of the members here my "real" piece of mind, but they won't let me..

Loosen up- this isn't personal, I was merely explaining to you that we gaijin (me too, me too, me too) usually tend to over-react because we're far away and see things a bit differently.

I apologise if you were offended, but you're still over-reacting , in my opinion..

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"I remember about two years ago feeling the same way about Asashoryu, that with maturity he would mellow a bit. Fortunately, that has happened,"

When did that happen? He still continues to give people an extra shove into the front row after they are allready out of the ring. Who's face did he lay a a nice slap into after he'd allready won just a couple days ago. Asa's behavior still leaves something to be desired, especially for a Yokozuna.

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Here's my two cents. Roho's behavior was pretty sad. I have a hard time buying the cultural differences argument. People bow to each other in karate dojos around the world. But, although some Japanese rikishi are less than perfect, generally the least respectful rikishi are foriegners. Asashoryu is setting the example. People (foriegn fans and wrestlers alike) seem to forget that sumo is a martial art in which members are supposed to learn a code of ethics (such as respect for others) to supplement and temper the martial skills they learn. Without these ethical constraints there is a danger of the budo-ka turning into a simple bully. It's primarily the responsibilty of the wrestler's oyakata and other senpai to teach these values. Maybe language is an issue.

On the other themes running here - henka doesn't bother me ( a rule is a rule, fair is fair, etc...), unless it fails and then it looks pretty stupid. And I like Kitazakura. Strictly speaking, showing any emotion is supposed to be taboo (from what I hear), but he is respectful towards his opponent and I find his childlike exuberance at winning amusing and refreshing.

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Here's my two cents. Roho's behavior was pretty sad. I have a hard time buying the cultural differences argument. People bow to each other in karate dojos around the world. But, although some Japanese rikishi are less than perfect, generally the least respectful rikishi are foriegners. Asashoryu is setting the example.
If you want the PERFECT precedent of a rikishi who NEVER bowed after a loss, go no further than Takanohana. Who is as Japanese as is possible.

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I'd say, being 31 gave you more than enough time to mature into a respectful human being. Entering Sumo at 20 might be bad timing in that sense.

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Roho joined at 22, Kokkai and Hakurozan at 20, and Osh shortly before his 20th birthday. And the college rikishi are generally at least 22 when they join, of course.

so?

i "joined sumo" at 31 which by the above logic should have me taking a leak into the chikara mizu if i lost.

you do don't you? (Bleh!)

Dittos Nishi BTW - Osh's silence today was probably partially out of embarrassment for being a twat recently - not that I'd be overly direct in my opinions of course. (Feeling guilty...)

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Not to pile on, but I myself was boiling when I watched Roho on the digest just now....first his sloooooow walk back to his side after getting dumped by Kaio was already disrespectful, and then he topped it off with barely a head nod (as per usual, as noted above), and then he had the temerity to rip off his sagari before descending the dohyo (not in the same way the Asashoryu did against Shuzan way back when, mind you, but enough so to draw notice, even from Kaio). And all this because he was summarily flipped on his ass by a superior rikishi (and character, needless to say). What a shame that the great Taiho has spend so much time trying to cultivate this lout.

I have to say, against my wishes, that I see similar tendencies from his brother. He too sometimes doesn't bow after losses and in general seems to assume a posture belying the fact he's a newcomer to the division (and not in a good way).

And just to pile on even more, I think I can finally say I've over Kotoushuu, and no longer find myself rooting for him. Just something about his on-dohyo manner that rubs me the wrong way (to say nothign of his off-dohyo comments).....

At the risk of sounding too much of a "me too", I agree with you 100%.

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1) Roho's religion might not support bowing too deeply to other people (I am not worthy...)

2) Someone was suggesting here that generally the guys from 'Eastern European culture' do not respect their opponents enough. I guess that this label includes me as well but I believe I have never been disrespectful to my sumo partners (Whistling...)

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I too like to consider it central (Whistling...)

Better shaggy hair than a sandpaper (Bleh!)

(This our way of showing respect to each other (I am not worthy...) )

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True. Most of the Mongolians joined Ozumo at younger ages though, and then there's the closer cultural proximity. On the other hand, Roho joined at 22, Kokkai and Hakurozan at 20, and Osh shortly before his 20th birthday. And the college rikishi are generally at least 22 when they join, of course.

Just to be accurate, Mongols and Japanese are culturally not quite close.

Although Roho and Osh joined sumo in their 20s, they started wrestling much younger. In any sport, wrestling or boxing, respect for opponent is a norm. Sumo is no different. Even Mike Tyson acknowledges his defeat fairly and squarely. Roho knows it and does it knowingly. He has no dignity. He would be bowing endlessly to superior wrestlers like Karelin, if he were back in Russia.

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1) Roho's religion might not support bowing too deeply to other people  (I am not worthy...)
Problem is, in his wins he bows deeper. Which sort of refutes that argument. (Whistling...)

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I too like to consider it central  (Sigh...)

Better shaggy hair than a sandpaper  (Bleh!)

(This our way of showing respect to each other  (In love...) )

(Applauding...) (Applauding...) (Applauding...) (Hugging...) (Sign of approval) the two stooges

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Guest GreatCornholio

Is it ok to say, "So what? He's a smaller guy winning against bigger guys, and it's just about winning to him?"

Seems like if that's the benchmark, he is doing ok. Maybe it will keep him from a Yokozuna promotion, but right now he is just doing what it takes to win.

As much as other folks don't seem to like him, I find myself rooting for him as an underdog in his matches.

(Applauding...)

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