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Doitsuyama

Full Nagoya 2005 banzuke

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AFAIK, you cannot change your shikona after the banzuke is done. I can't remember any instance of this occuring.

It does happen (or used to anyway) in the lower divisions. ...

Don't trust everything what you read. This is clearly wrong information. A look into one of the Japanese Sumo magazines in that period is enough to confirm that. The source of the error pretty likely is a wrong database of the former NSK website.

You're probably right that it is due to errors but I got the data from the new site, not the old one.

I have dug up one example:

In September 1999 East Jonokuchi 47 was listed severally as 武蔵城 (Musashikuni?) and 篠原 (Shinohara?)

See hoshitori and torikumi

The hint that something is broken comes from the lack of a reading for 武蔵城 on the hoshitori.

I would be interested to know your interpretation.

Edit: yes of course it was not the raw banzuke - I also can't see this data on the Kyokai site any more.

Edited by Naganoyama

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To make things more confusing, 篠原 appears on the next basho's hoshitori at Jd153w (which doesn't match the 6-1 record listed for 武蔵城), and with a different shusshin and heya...

Edit: Okay, that other 篠原 was previously 2-5 at Jd129w. I still have no idea what happened to 武蔵城 though. Nobody from his heya (Futagoyama) is listed in the relevant part of the next banzuke...

Another edit: Moti has a Shinohara listed as retired after Aki 1999, hmm.

Edited by Asashosakari

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To make things more confusing, 篠原 appears on the next basho's hoshitori at Jd153w (which doesn't match the 6-1 record listed for 武蔵城), and with a different shusshin and heya...

Edit: Okay, that other 篠原 was previously 2-5 at Jd129w. I still have no idea what happened to 武蔵城 though. Nobody from his heya (Futagoyama) is listed in the relevant part of the next banzuke...

Another edit: Moti has a Shinohara listed as retired after Aki 1999, hmm.

Solution, sort of: The rikishi listed as 篠原 for several basho is apparently Nishikisato (as per both szumo.hu and dichne.com)...I think that reading is correct, but that must mean the kanji are wrong since I don't think those two can be read as Nishikisato.

That Jk47e probably did compete as 篠原 Shinohara (and retired after one 6-1 basho, how odd), and the hoshitori page is probably in error.

I have a note to myself that 篠原 was on the banzuke at some point , but competed as Nishikisato. It would have been helpful if I had written down the date. I even went as far as looking for a Shinohara who changed his shikona to Nishikisato with no success. Nishikisato's kyokai record has dashes for a previous shikona. This is probably meaningless as it is one of those pages with weight 0 height 0 etc.

Ah OK, it was September 2000. 篠原(Shinohara) was on the hoshitori page at Jd98e, but competed as 錦里(Nishikisato).

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Yes, that profile page is here (Japanese version). Nishikisato is the middle shikona of the three listed, the last one is apparently Shinohara.

Incidentally, I'm an idiot...I actually have the old lower division banzuke files (saved into the wrong folder a year and a half ago for some reason, just found them now)...according to those files, the rikishi in question was using 篠原 at least as far back as Hatsu 1998. Now I wonder how he came to be known as Nishikisato in 1999 and 2000...maybe he changed back from Shinohara to Nishikisato and it's not acknowledged on the Kyokai banzuke/hoshitori pages, just on the torikumi?

I wonder if anybody has a real banzuke from that period and could check what name the guy was competing under at the time...

Edited by Asashosakari

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Don't bother to come up with complicated solutions (especially not involving shikona changes between banzuke and basho...). The simple explanations are the best and correct ones most of the time.

Yes, Shinohara 篠原 was on the banzuke until Kyushu 1998 when he fell off after two 0-0-7 in Aki 1998 and Kyushu 1998. I say it is pretty obvious that he returned for one basho (and this is not a new Shinohara). Also he didn't change his shikona (as I don't have another rikishi with the same birth date).

Nishikisato 錦里 never changed his shikona between 1996 and his Intai in Aki 2000. Obvious database error. Incidentally the dashes for his former shikona stands for Kanenosato 金の里, his first shikona between 1994.09 and 1995.11. My database contains a bit for him; real name 山田 健一 (Yamada Kenichi), birth date 24.01.1974, Tatsutagawa-beya, coming from Osaka (Osaka-city) height 174 cm, weight 95.5 kg and of course all ranks and results in his career. I really should move on with making this stuff available online...

To explain the Musashijo 武蔵城 case: Funnily there has been another Shinohara 篠原 changing his shikona to Musashijo 武蔵城, back to Shinohara 篠原 and again to Musashijo 武蔵城. It is a different one though as he retired in 1993.05 (his hatsu-dohyo I don't know but it must have been before Hatsu 1985) while the Shinohara in discussion had his hatsu-dohyo in 1993.03... The heya are different too, the first Shinohara was a Musashigawa-beya rikishi, the second one a Futagoyama-beya rikishi. For the second Shinohara the birthdate is 13.02.1978 so his hatsu-dohyo really couldn't have been before 1993. This was a puzzling case with an (more or less obvious) database error as solution.

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Two deleted posts later... (Blinking...)

So, I hope I got this right...the Futagoyama Shinohara returned to the banzuke (still as Shinohara) in Aki 1999 -- but due to his also using Shinohara at one point, the Kyokai has the 1993 Musashijo as the returnee, which led to all the mix-ups. The profile #1643 (jp/eng) is a weird mixture of the two, with heya and shusshin from Shinohara #2 and shikona order from #1...

Edit: Hmm, the error seems to go quite some way back...the Kyokai's Kyushu 1998 data (i.e. before the banzuke-gai) already has the bogus Musashijo in place of Shinohara.

Can we conclude from this that the torikumi pages are more accurate than the banzuke/hoshitori ones? The torikumi had both Shinohara and Nishikisato correct...

Thank you Doitsuyama for clearing things up. (I am not worthy...)

Edited by Asashosakari

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You're probably right that it is due to errors but I got the data from the new site, not the old one.

The new site also lists Ichinoya in 1998 as belonging to Takasago. Of course, he was still part of the Wakamatsu beya then, which means that the hoshitori has all the relevant records, but the heya affiliation was "updated" to the present, which sucks IMHO.

And that is just one example..

Edited by Kintamayama

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I have added birth dates, heights and weights now. The heights and weights still are from Sumo magazine May 2004. I have no time to type them in from the May 2005 edition (sadly no way to automate this task), but surely will do so later.

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