sumo term inquiry

[shimodahito 336]

Good day all,
   Is there a Japanese term (or description) for the lowest ranked rikishi in jonokuchi?  The highest rank in the pro divisions is usually "higashi yokozuna".  What is the lowest ranked jonokuchi position called?  For this basho Jk14W Wakasasaki held the position.
   They are on the edge of banzuke gai, or the worst of the previous basho's shin deshi.

Thanks.

[Akinomaki 41,849]

The lowest in makuuchi is makujiri, the lowest in jonokuchi accordingly jonokuchi-jiri 序ノ口尻 - I checked the use, dai-sensei Tsubota uses it on his site, so it is a proper term

[Kintamayama 47,340]

1 hour ago, Akinomaki said:

The lowest in makuuchi is makujiri, the lowest in jonokuchi accordingly jonokuchi-jiri 序ノ口尻 - I checked the use, dai-sensei Tsubota uses it on his site, so it is a proper term

So the lowest-ranked comedian is Seinfeld-Jiri?

[Asashosakari 20,287]

5 hours ago, shimodahito said:

Good day all,
   Is there a Japanese term (or description) for the lowest ranked rikishi in jonokuchi?  The highest rank in the pro divisions is usually "higashi yokozuna".  What is the lowest ranked jonokuchi position called?  For this basho Jk14W Wakasasaki held the position.
   They are on the edge of banzuke gai, or the worst of the previous basho's shin deshi.

Thanks.

Nobody's really "on the edge of banzuke-gai" since there's no way to perform badly enough to get demoted to it, only by not performing at all.

[shimodahito 336]

Thanks all,
   I looked up Akinomaki's reference.  My Japanese is no good, but looks like they were referring to rikishi from 1918 who was "3rd down on the west"?  I could not find him in the database, but there were more than 20 east-west rankings for both bashos in 1918.  I may have completely missed the context of the discussion in reference to the term jonokuchi-jiri.

   I've also seen use of 序ノ口最低 (saitei?) in sumo discussions about the infamous Shonanzakura and other noted losers here: https://itest.5ch.net/mao/test/read.cgi/sumou/1521727708/ and https://itest.5ch.net/mao/test/read.cgi/sumou/1548029385
   Again, I may not be smart enough to comprehend the context that would put this possibility as meaning the lowest ranked jonokuchi on the banzuke.

@Akinomaki

 

[RabidJohn 2,072]

8 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

The lowest in makuuchi is makujiri

Does that refer only to 'no. 42', or is it a range of ranks at the bottom, like the joi at the top end of the maegashira?

I ask because @dingo has referred to the possibility of Onokatsu winning "another makujiri yusho".

[Akinomaki 41,849]

1 hour ago, RabidJohn said:

Does that refer only to 'no. 42', or is it a range of ranks at the bottom, like the joi at the top end of the maegashira?

I ask because @dingo has referred to the possibility of Onokatsu winning "another makujiri yusho".

It refers to the last rank, when there's east and west of it, there are 2. But in a broader or rather literal sense, it just means the bottom and could include the last 2 ranks.

In the case of jonokuchi-jiri the use is more precise, used as 3 ranks from the bottom, e.g.

[Kamitsuumi 408]

Both East and West rikishi, as Terunofuji and Takatoriki (along with the actual last rikishi Tokushoryu) counted as makujiri yusho

[Gurowake 4,154]

In relation to these last couple posts, while it's true that the rikishi are ranked on the east are seen as slightly higher ranked because it's the more prestigious side, they are actually the same rank for every purpose other than banzuke movement.  It's true there aren't all that many other purposes, but it's seen in things like "career highest rank", which doesn't consider which side of the banzuke the rikishi was on.  If they were once M5w and later are M5e, the latter doesn't count as a newest career high rank.  Also, for torikumi making, the west side rikishi generally gets priority for scheduling on even-numbered days.

Thus it really makes no sense (except in banzuke movements) to not consider M17e the lowest Makuuchi rank when there's no rank M18 rikishi just because there's an M17w as well.  The same could then be said for Jonokuchi.

Edited November 15, 2024 by Gurowake

[dingo 1,483]

2 hours ago, RabidJohn said:

Does that refer only to 'no. 42', or is it a range of ranks at the bottom, like the joi at the top end of the maegashira?

I ask because @dingo has referred to the possibility of Onokatsu winning "another makujiri yusho".

I used the term loosely, where I meant to say near-bottom makuuchi. Looks like I used it incorrectly. 

[RabidJohn 2,072]

4 hours ago, dingo said:

I used the term loosely, where I meant to say near-bottom makuuchi. Looks like I used it incorrectly. 

And I knew what you meant, so we've both learned something.