Differing punishments for absences

[Joaoiyama 306]

Since the topic is absences, in my opinion no kyujo should count for a win or a loss in any game. I'm talking from the point of view of a 12h difference from Japan so when the kyujo announcements are released it would be between 1-2 AM in Brazil. It's just too big of a disadvantage. 

Edited September 19 by Joaoiyama

[Kachikoshi 21]

On 18/09/2024 at 15:52, Bunbukuchagama said:

Also, comparing the ways different games deal with fusen might be interesting.

 

5 hours ago, Joaoiyama said:

Since the topic is absences, in my opinion no kyujo should count for a win or a loss in any game. I'm talking from the point of view of a 12h difference from Japan so when the kyujo announcements are released it would be between 1-2 AM in Brazil. It's just too big of a disadvantage. 

In the spirit of the opening post, here's my attempt to rank the games based on how much advantage you get for checking the kyujo list every day before the deadline. This ranking is definitely more subjective than the one for missing a day. Here are the games in increasing order of advantage:

1. Tipspiel offers no advantage whatsoever for checking the kyujo list because fusen bouts are automatically disregarded and point assignments automatically adjusted.
2. Bench Sumo also offers no advantage assuming you check the "henka" box, and there's literally no reason not to check the henka box.
3. In Chain Gang if your chosen rikishi is involved in a fusen match, the game automatically falls back to your default selection. It's not very often that this even occurs, and when it does, your default pick is probably pretty good anyway, so there is not much advantage to be gained here.
4. In Odd Sumo if you pick someone involved in a fusen, that match automatically counts as a win but also the quota is set to one, meaning you earn no points from picking it. However, you're required to pick at least three winners each day you enter, and picking someone involved in a fusen effectively means you only need to pick two that day. Since the odds are stacked against you in this game, picking someone involved in a fusen means you can gamble a little less, which gives you a small increase to your expected final score.
5. In ISP, if you know someone in the chosen bout is kyujo you get a guaranteed win. But because ISP only uses a single bout each day, this is a fairly rare occurrence (though it did happen this tournament).
6. Sekitori-Quadrumvirate lets you pick fusen winners. It is only slightly discouraged by penalizing you in the sansho standings and way down the list of tiebreakers. However you will frequently be in the situation that you already chose the winner by fusen earlier in the tournament and thus can't take advantage, and even if you do take advantage, you still need 2/3 of your remaining picks to win in order to claim a victory that day.
7. Sumo Game counts fusen wins as ordinary wins. If you're paying attention, you can not only claim a free point, but you can also place him at the top of your list, giving you a high chance of winning any potential tiebreaker. It's very difficult for a player who didn't react to the kuyjo announcement to beat an opponent who did.
8. Sekitori-Toto also counts fusen wins as ordinary wins. Getting an extra point is frequently the difference between claiming a win or a loss on any given day, and it comes up more often than in Sumo Game because Sumo Game only cares about Makuuchi.
9. In my opinion Turn the Tide offers the biggest advantage to paying attention. Turn the Tide lets you pick any sekitori, so fusens come up frequently, and when they do most of the time either the winner has a losing record or the loser has a winning record, so you'll be eligible to pick one of the two. Of course you still need to get your other pick of the day correct to earn a win (unless there are multiple fusens that day!).

Edited September 19 by Kachikoshi

[Athenayama 953]

9 minutes ago, Kachikoshi said:

 

1. Bench Sumo also offers no advantage assuming you check the "henka" box, and there's literally no reason not to check the henka box.

Yes, there is. It is like picking "X"s in Sekitori Toto.

[Ganzohnesushi 506]

Appreciate the time Kachikoshi has invested to specify the advantages and disadvantages of the daily games. So we can see, that an absence of a player or a kyujo of Rikishi has not the same consequences in all the games.

But irrespective of the different scenarios all games have one thing in common. The same rules apply to every participating player, so no advantage or disadvantage for anyone. I agree that living in different time zones might be a little handicap when Rikishi go kyujo. But hey, it is only a game and your life should not be affected by this.

Ganzohnesushi

[Jakusotsu 5,806]

1 hour ago, Athenayama said:

1 hour ago, Kachikoshi said:

1. Bench Sumo also offers no advantage assuming you check the "henka" box, and there's literally no reason not to check the henka box.

Yes, there is. It is like picking "X"s in Sekitori Toto.

That's not even apples and oranges, more like Hale-Bopp and Takakeisho.

[Joaoiyama 306]

1 hour ago, Ganzohnesushi said:

But hey, it is only a game and your life should not be affected by this.

Ganzohnesushi

Well setting an alarm at 1:30AM to catch some kyujo announcements definitely affects my life as i'm so invested in the games. Some days i miss the alarm and get losses on TTT, quad, toto, sumo game and even ISP like in day 11 with three kyujo. It is what it is though, maybe i'll have to move to some country with a time zone closer to Japan. 

[Kajiyanosho 16]

16 minutes ago, Joaoiyama said:

Well setting an alarm at 1:30AM to catch some kyujo announcements definitely affects my life as i'm so invested in the games. Some days i miss the alarm and get losses on TTT, quad, toto, sumo game and even ISP like in day 11 with three kyujo. It is what it is though, maybe i'll have to move to some country with a time zone closer to Japan. 

Wow, the alarm is serious commitment! Understandable, though - I see a different impact even in Kyushu/Hatsu/Haru when the time difference between the UK and Japan is an extra hour. It's annoying, but on the other hand my time zone allows me to watch at least Makunouchi matches live pretty much every day, so it's not too bad overall!

I'd like to think that while seeing kyujo announcements is a clear advantage, it's probably not decisive for SB masters / SBWC. Hope so anyway! 

[Andonishiki 168]

we should all write to the NSK and convince them for the sake of fairness that all kyujo for the next day must be announced between 20h and 21:30 Tokyo time to allow enough time for all time zones on the globe to adjust.

i am certain they wont ignore our wish !

Japanese are historically prone to listen, aknowledge and accept outsider advice... having worked for Mitsubishi (the most stubborn keiretsu of all), my experience surely proves this point...

a Japanese wife at home adds to this conviction.... NOT !

Edited September 20 by Andonishiki

[Bunbukuchagama 688]

On 19/09/2024 at 15:15, Athenayama said:

Yes, there is. It is like picking "X"s in Sekitori Toto.

It's not even close to being the same.

[Bunbukuchagama 688]

23 hours ago, Joaoiyama said:

Well setting an alarm at 1:30AM to catch some kyujo announcements definitely affects my life as i'm so invested in the games. Some days i miss the alarm and get losses on TTT, quad, toto, sumo game and even ISP like in day 11 with three kyujo. It is what it is though, maybe i'll have to move to some country with a time zone closer to Japan. 

I just stay awake and watch sumo till 5:00am. 

[Bunbukuchagama 688]

On 19/09/2024 at 15:05, Kachikoshi said:

In Chain Gang if your chosen rikishi is involved in a fusen match, the game automatically falls back to your default selection. It's not very often that this even occurs, and when it does, your default pick is probably pretty good anyway, so there is not much advantage to be gained here.

You have a limit on default pick use; if you exhausted both, you just lose. 

[Kachikoshi 21]

8 minutes ago, Andonishiki said:

we should all write to the NSK and convince them for the sake of fairness that all kyujo for the next day must be announced between 20h and 21:30 Tokyo time to allow enough time for all time zones on the globe to adjust.

i am certain they wont ignore our wish !

Japanese are historically prone to listen, aknowledge and accept outsider advice... having worked for Mitsubishi (the most stubborn keiretsu of all), my experience surely proves this point...

a Japanese wife at home adds to this conviction.... NOT !

Agreed. It is completely unacceptable for any of our beloved sumo games to change in any way. Even the ones which could trivially just disregard fusen matches (Sekitori-Toto) must remain exactly as they are for the rest of time. Therefore, for the sake of Joaoiyama’s sleep, the change must come from the Sumo Association itself.

[Kachikoshi 21]

2 minutes ago, Bunbukuchagama said:

You have a limit on default pick use; if you exhausted both, you just lose. 

There’s basically zero chance of any given player choosing rikishi involved in a fusen six times over the course of a single tournament.

[Bunbukuchagama 688]

3 minutes ago, Kachikoshi said:

There’s basically zero chance of any given player choosing rikishi involved in a fusen six times over the course of a single tournament.

Default picks are the best expected picks, and most players choose them manually anyway. Which means they can easily be spent without a single missed day.

[Joaoiyama 306]

1 minute ago, Bunbukuchagama said:

I just stay awake and watch sumo till 5:00am. 

That's what i did when i didn't have a job, now i can only afford that luxury on fridays and saturdays. 

[Oskanohana 227]

On 19/09/2024 at 22:49, Jakusotsu said:

That's not even apples and oranges, more like Hale-Bopp and Takakeisho.

Comet Hale–Bopp  Takakeisho is a comet japanese rikishi that was one of the most widely observed of the 20th 21st century and one of the brightest seen for many decades.

There you go, from the 1st line from the wikipedia's page on the comet.

[Athenayama 953]

On 19/09/2024 at 22:49, Jakusotsu said:

That's not even apples and oranges, more like Hale-Bopp and Takakeisho.

 

8 hours ago, Bunbukuchagama said:

It's not even close to being the same.

Probably you don't see it like I do.

[Asashosakari 18,783]

9 hours ago, Kachikoshi said:

Agreed. It is completely unacceptable for any of our beloved sumo games to change in any way. Even the ones which could trivially just disregard fusen matches (Sekitori-Toto) must remain exactly as they are for the rest of time. Therefore, for the sake of Joaoiyama’s sleep, the change must come from the Sumo Association itself.

I actually wouldn't be opposed to fusen results not counting in Toto, but alas, that idea would just join an existing list of mine of things that I'd like to see added/changed. It's a question of availability of the people who would need to implement it, and as was discussed in another thread quite recently, that's the sticking point with many games' automation these days.

[Ganzohnesushi 506]

Excluding fusen from the score is not so easy in every case and from my point of view doesn't make sense. Simply look at the situation of Shirokuma vs. Takarafuj on Day 13. I had picked Takarafuji in S4 when I made my daily picks already a couple of hours before Shirokuma's kyujo was announced. His kyujo was announced on the Kyokai's web site only after the deadline for the picks. While in Seki Toto the cancellation of this Bout might have no further impacts, it has a significant effect in a game like S4.

Simply leave the game rules as they are. Period.

Ganzohnesushi

[Kachikoshi 21]

14 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

I actually wouldn't be opposed to fusen results not counting in Toto, but alas, that idea would just join an existing list of mine of things that I'd like to see added/changed. It's a question of availability of the people who would need to implement it, and as was discussed in another thread quite recently, that's the sticking point with many games' automation these days.

If there’s a desire to make the change I’d be happy to do it. I doubt it would be very hard.

11 hours ago, Ganzohnesushi said:

Excluding fusen from the score is not so easy in every case and from my point of view doesn't make sense. Simply look at the situation of Shirokuma vs. Takarafuj on Day 13. I had picked Takarafuji in S4 when I made my daily picks already a couple of hours before Shirokuma's kyujo was announced. His kyujo was announced on the Kyokai's web site only after the deadline for the picks. While in Seki Toto the cancellation of this Bout might have no further impacts, it has a significant effect in a game like S4.

Simply leave the game rules as they are. Period.

Ganzohnesushi

The kyujo was announced on the website and on this forum shortly after noon Japan Time, about two hours before the deadline. I and many others were able to take advantage.

[Ganzohnesushi 506]

1 minute ago, Kachikoshi said:

The kyujo was announced on the website and on this forum shortly after noon Japan Time, about two hours before the deadline. I and many others were able to take advantage.

You're absolutely right. I mixed this up with the three kyujo announcements on Day 11 (Hokutofuji, Tsurugisho and Shimazuumi), when two of these announcements were made after the deadline for the games.

Ganzohnesushi