Takakeisho: Continue Or Quit?

[Gaijingai 1,591]

https://tinyurl.com/4whsj72s

[Benevolance 2,501]

Wow. I didn't realize he's completed 30 tournaments at Ozeki. 

[Asojima 2,874]

6 hours ago, Benevolance said:

Wow. I didn't realize he's completed 30 tournaments at Ozeki. 

He competed in 30, but he only completed  20 of them. 

Edited September 18, 2024 by Asojima

[bettega 431]

Only 28y... he could take some basho off to try a Terunofuji-style return

[Bunbukuchagama 739]

46 minutes ago, bettega said:

Only 28y... he could take some basho off to try a Terunofuji-style return

There is no fixing his neck.

[Joaoiyama 308]

No need to keep going, his health is already destroyed. 

[dingo 1,267]

3 hours ago, Bunbukuchagama said:

There is no fixing his neck.

He could fight with a neck brace covered in tape, Terunofuji style. 

[Jakusotsu 5,995]

Does he even have a neck?

[Bunbukuchagama 739]

10 minutes ago, Jakusotsu said:

Does he even have a neck?

We need to see the proof.

[yohcun 401]

2 hours ago, Jakusotsu said:

Does he even have a neck?

Well not anymore, no.

[I am the Yokozuna 194]

With the imminent promotion of Onosato to ozeki, probably before the basho ends on Sunday the little Sato should announce his retirement. He is a sumo nobility so I expect him to do well as an oyakata.   

[DonKordylone 9]

A Takanohana recruit, he will probably head Tokiwayama in 2 years, thats actually a good time to get the grip on things.

[Koorifuu 1,003]

13 hours ago, DonKordylone said:

A Takanohana recruit, he will probably head Tokiwayama in 2 years, thats actually a good time to get the grip on things.

FWIW. There were reports Tokiwayama wasn't too keen on that and would much rather Takanosho took the mantle.

Edited September 19, 2024 by Koorifuu

[RabidJohn 1,816]

An ozeki of his standing can branch out with his own heya, no?

[Jakusotsu 5,995]

30 minutes ago, RabidJohn said:

An ozeki of his standing can branch out with his own heya, no?

Perhaps, but who will follow?

[Godango 1,001]

 

23 minutes ago, Jakusotsu said:

Perhaps, but who will follow?

This is an interesting point. Presumably at his young age Takakeisho hasn't actively scouted or otherwise gained any uchi-deshi yet?

Is the likely scenario that (assuming intai) he stays on at Tokiwayama-beya as a coach until the oyakata retires in a year or two, then branches out if/when Takanosho takes the mantle with likely a few uchi-deshi and one or two others gained in that time?

Edited September 19, 2024 by Godango

[Sakura 1,489]

I imagine he'd have good financial support for a heya.

[Asashosakari 19,500]

5 hours ago, Godango said:

Is the likely scenario that (assuming intai) he stays on at Tokiwayama-beya as a coach until the oyakata retires in a year or two, then branches out if/when Takanosho takes the mantle with likely a few uchi-deshi and one or two others gained in that time?

No offense intended - I mulled the same possibility in my head yesterday! - but this is probably the sort of chronology that only makes sense to fans, not out in the real world.

For the sake of argument:

If Takakeisho were to take over Tokiwayama-beya as an interim shisho only, we should probably still expect him to move the stable to his home premises immediately (the old Hatachiyama-beya his wife and mother-in-law have inherited). That would mean once Takanosho takes over, he would have to find a location of his own straight away (since Takakeisho would obviously continue to use the place for his branch-out heya) - and Takanosho is probably not the kind of super-popular rikishi who could just finance the construction of an entirely new heya. Would the current Tokiwayama building still be available to him? Who knows.

Additionally, the Takakeisho-led Tokiwayama-beya might not have much left over of the old heya after a few years. (Takanosho is only 29, he could conceivably remain active for another 5+ years after the retirement of the current Tokiwayama in a year and a half.) Takakeisho will have probably gone on a big recruiting drive as most new shisho do, and many of the rikishi who are currently in the heya will have retired by the time Takanosho's active career is over. Some who do still remain might also wish to go with Takakeisho after they've been under his leadership for so long. Takanosho could well be inheriting a near-empty Tokiwayama-beya in that scenario, unless he has worked hard to collect uchi-deshi himself.

So all of that only really makes sense if everyone involved is on the same page, and that page reads "we really, really want Takanosho to be able to have a stable". If Takakeisho doesn't care about that, it's hard to see what he would gain from going along with it. He can just let Tokiwayama-beya fall apart and set up Minatogawa-beya (or whatever its name will end up being) in his own time. We've seen it happen with Michinoku/Otowayama.

Perhaps it's all academic because Takanosho hits the required 60 top division tournaments in the end and becomes eligible to re-establish Tokiwayama-beya on his own if he wants. But obviously that's not something to count on.

[Godango 1,001]

10 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

No offense intended - I mulled the same possibility in my head yesterday! - but this is probably the sort of chronology that only makes sense to fans, not out in the real world.

Oh for context I meant staying on as a coach in the same way that Kakuryu stayed on at Michinoku until branching out after a year or so. I completely agree that Takakeisho being interim shisho awaiting a Takanosho handover would make no sense. 

So what I'm wondering is would he stay on in Tokiwayama as a coach, not the shisho (apologies if I'm conflating terms). In this time he could start recruiting uchi-deshi in earnest, learn from the current Tokiwayama-oyakata and then potentially there's something of a heya split on Tokiwaya's retirement, though this assumes Takanosho would be retired by then. 

Or, do we believe Takakeisho would just branch out at the earliest opportunity and build his heya from the bottom up? Is anyone aware of recruitment on his part, or any existing uchi-deshi?

Apologies if I'm not being clear.

[Muhomatsu 245]

What are the odds for a trade between Keisho and Tochinohana of kabu at some point in the future - so that he obtains Hatachiyama and can re-open that stable in the old premises?  There could be some money exchanging hands in such a deal, but that would all be done under the table.

 

[Raishu 208]

3 hours ago, Muhomatsu said:

What are the odds for a trade between Keisho and Tochinohana of kabu at some point in the future - so that he obtains Hatachiyama and can re-open that stable in the old premises?  There could be some money exchanging hands in such a deal, but that would all be done under the table.

 

I have had the very same thought. If they really want to re-establish "the" heya as it was back then, a kabu swap seems reasonable to me.

Just checked the database and the Hatachiyama name has crossed ichimon lines before (unlike Minatogawa), so there is no deep historical connection with the Dewanoumi group. My impression is that ichimon affiliation (regarding elder stock) is not as important as it used to be and a normal trade (without money being involved) could happen out of generosity. On the other hand, maybe Takakeisho wants to bring the heya back to its original ichimon. There are a lot of possible scenarios, I guess.

[I am the Yokozuna 194]

On 18/09/2024 at 13:44, I am the Yokozuna said:

With the imminent promotion of Onosato to ozeki, probably before the basho ends on Sunday the little Sato should announce his retirement. He is a sumo nobility so I expect him to do well as an oyakata.   

So I called the timing right, as we would have a new ozeki confirmed today, this, bad, new would be easily not forgotten but pushed aside

[Asashosakari 19,500]

18 hours ago, Godango said:

Oh for context I meant staying on as a coach in the same way that Kakuryu stayed on at Michinoku until branching out after a year or so. I completely agree that Takakeisho being interim shisho awaiting a Takanosho handover would make no sense. 

So what I'm wondering is would he stay on in Tokiwayama as a coach, not the shisho (apologies if I'm conflating terms). In this time he could start recruiting uchi-deshi in earnest, learn from the current Tokiwayama-oyakata and then potentially there's something of a heya split on Tokiwaya's retirement, though this assumes Takanosho would be retired by then. 

Or, do we believe Takakeisho would just branch out at the earliest opportunity and build his heya from the bottom up? Is anyone aware of recruitment on his part, or any existing uchi-deshi?

Apologies if I'm not being clear.

He needs to wait a year before he'll be allowed to branch out anyway; I presume we'll know the intended fate of Tokiwayama-beya by then, too.

[Asashosakari 19,500]

13 hours ago, Raishu said:

I have had the very same thought. If they really want to re-establish "the" heya as it was back then, a kabu swap seems reasonable to me.

Just checked the database and the Hatachiyama name has crossed ichimon lines before (unlike Minatogawa), so there is no deep historical connection with the Dewanoumi group. My impression is that ichimon affiliation (regarding elder stock) is not as important as it used to be and a normal trade (without money being involved) could happen out of generosity. On the other hand, maybe Takakeisho wants to bring the heya back to its original ichimon. There are a lot of possible scenarios, I guess.

Dewanoumi-ichimon is rather infamous for not letting go of shares easily, though I guess Hatachiyama isn't of particular importance to them so a one-for-one trade against Minatogawa doesn't seem impossible. (Similar to the Fujishima-for-Sendagawa trade between Akinoshima and Dewanoumi-ichimon two decades ago.) But of course the Nishonoseki group will have something to say about that, too.

Takakeisho building a Hatachiyama-beya in Dewanoumi-ichimon makes little sense to me, though. He'd likely have little political support in the group, and the overall lineage is dead anyway (i.e. the defunct Mihogaseki-beya as the heya that the previous Hatachiyama-beya branched off of).

[Raishu 208]

12 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

Takakeisho building a Hatachiyama-beya in Dewanoumi-ichimon makes little sense to me, though. He'd likely have little political support in the group, and the overall lineage is dead anyway (i.e. the defunct Mihogaseki-beya as the heya that the previous Hatachiyama-beya branched off of).

You are probably right about that and I also do not believe such a transfer is very likely.

But speaking of political support: As a sumo fan of over two decades, I have followed Takakeisho's career from the start till the end ... reading many dohyo related articles and sure enough, I am aware of the father's role regarding the ex-Ozeki's sumo life. But do we know anything about his career aspirations as an Oyakata? For example, Kisenosato's preparations for his post-active career were widely featured in newspapers and it was clear from the start, that he wants to leave his mark in the administrative hierachy as well. Has Takakeisho ever voiced any intentions publicly? The reason I am asking is, that political support within the ichimon only seems to be relevant if you actually have these aspirations, right? If you just want to focus on your heya and leave the politics to other alphas (Musashimaru comes to mind here), the ichimon-affiliation probably wouldn't matter that much (regardless of that hypothetical transfer or not).