Aki 2024 discussion (results)

[Reonito 1,791]

3 hours ago, Koorifuu said:

Hidenoumi hakuyozan'd Hakuyozan.

It's not his style, so I'm wondering if the rikishi decided to take matters into their own hands!

[Katooshu 3,485]

45 minutes ago, Yarimotsu said:

Very surprised to see a torinaoshi there after similarly close incidents earlier in the basho had been passed over on the strength of fewer frames of flying rikishi. Regardless of any potential hand-swipe earlier in the fight, or the possibility (I think quite likely) of a very slight touch of Onosato's left big toe at the wrong side of the tawara, Kotozakura clearly remains in the ring and applies a final technique to send Onosato flying out moments before he touches down outside. 

If this incident were 3 or more basho ago I would have expected a torinaoshi, but on the strength of prior incidents in this basho I was not expecting to see one there and Onosato should consider himself very lucky. Surely he must win it all from here. Kotozakura, on the other hand, can't expect to be given the break no matter how stiff that decision was. I tend to think in situations like these that the call is made with consideration of an Ozeki on 7 wins playing in the judges' heads.

Speaking of Ozeki, in a departure from recent days' misjudgements Hoshoryu chose the correct technique today and kaeshi'd Kiri. More of that please.

I dunno, it looked pretty simultaneous to me, I think rematch was the right call. The hand and toe looked close, but from what I've seen so far there's no moment showing them clearly down/out. 

Here's an angle, albeit from further back than ideal, which gives a better vantage point of the hand and toe than Abema and live NHK did (not sure what replays NHK showed). Watching at .25 percent speed makes it easier to track.

 

Edited September 20, 2024 by Katooshu

[Katooshu 3,485]

I notice that when they had the rematch, they only went to the corners twice for salt - is that the norm for rematches? Or was this more likely a 'news starts in a minute' thing? Never paid attention to this before. 

Edited September 20, 2024 by Katooshu

[Reonito 1,791]

24 minutes ago, Katooshu said:

I dunno, it looked pretty simultaneous to me, I think rematch was the right call. The hand and toe looked close, but from what I've seen so far there's no moment showing them clearly down/out. 

Even going frame by frame, I don't see any clear evidence.

[Octofuji 432]

Takarafuji is getting dangerously close to his first double digit win in eight years.

Hypothetical I'm sure, but if he does finish 11-4 is there any chance of a special prize, given he's not been in yusho contention?

[Reonito 1,791]

1 minute ago, Octofuji said:

Takarafuji is getting dangerously close to his first double digit win in eight years.

Hypothetical I'm sure, but if he does finish 11-4 is there any chance of a special prize, given he's not been in yusho contention?

For a veteran with a career high of sekiwake? I don't see it...

[Asashosakari 20,290]

45 minutes ago, Reonito said:

It's not his style, so I'm wondering if the rikishi decided to take matters into their own hands!

"When push comes to shove", quite literally.

[Reonito 1,791]

4 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

"When push comes to shove", quite literally.

Out of reacts but 100%

[Asashosakari 20,290]

23 minutes ago, Reonito said:

For a veteran with a career high of sekiwake? I don't see it...

Onosato aside, similar considerations apply to practically everyone who has done well this basho, don't they? Kirishima, Wakatakakage, Takayasu, Wakamotoharu, Shodai, Takarafuji, to lesser degrees also Nishikigi and Ura, all guys where an argument can be made that they haven't excelled that much relative to what's expected of them based on their personal histories. (Unless one of the 10-3's still backdoors his way to the yusho, of course.) The breakout-iest rikishi might actually be Oho, or perhaps Churanoumi, but neither seems to have the numbers to really push a sansho case. It feels like a vote that's going to come down to who the journalists are simply most sympathetic to, and that could go any number of ways including, perhaps, nobody getting sansho besides Onosato.

Edit: Well, shukun-sho for WTK for defeating Onosato is a good possibility, I suppose, especially if he goes to 13-1 tomorrow.

Edited September 20, 2024 by Asashosakari

[Octofuji 432]

16 minutes ago, Reonito said:

For a veteran with a career high of sekiwake? I don't see it...

Yeah I thought as much. Aoiyama had an 11-4 a few years ago and got a prize, but he was theoretically in yusho contention towards the end.

[Reonito 1,791]

5 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

Onosato aside, similar considerations apply to practically everyone who has done well this basho, don't they? Kirishima, Wakatakakage, Takayasu, Wakamotoharu, Shodai, Takarafuji, to lesser degrees also Nishikigi and Ura, all guys where an argument can be made that they haven't excelled that much relative to what's expected of them based on their personal histories. (Unless one of the 10-3's still backdoors his way to the yusho, of course.) The breakout-iest rikishi might actually be Oho, or perhaps Churanoumi, but neither seems to have the numbers to really push a sansho case. It feels like a vote that's going to come down to who the journalists are simply most sympathetic to, and that could go any number of ways.

Edit: Well, shukun-sho for WTK for defeating Onosato, I suppose.

They could just give all 3 to Onosato and call it a day 

Seriously though, WTK makes sense and is a good comeback story. But we've had basho with few prizes...

[Octofuji 432]

9 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

Onosato aside, similar considerations apply to practically everyone who has done well this basho, don't they? Kirishima, Wakatakakage, Takayasu, Wakamotoharu, Shodai, Takarafuji, to lesser degrees also Nishikigi and Ura, all guys where an argument can be made that they haven't excelled that much relative to what's expected of them based on their personal histories. (Unless one of the 10-3's still backdoors his way to the yusho, of course.) The breakout-iest rikishi might actually be Oho, or perhaps Churanoumi, but neither seems to have the numbers to really push a sansho case. It feels like a vote that's going to come down to who the journalists are simply most sympathetic to, and that could go any number of ways including, perhaps, nobody getting sansho besides Onosato.

Edit: Well, shukun-sho for WTK for defeating Onosato is a good possibility, I suppose, especially if he goes to 13-1 tomorrow.

I guess the difference is all of these guys have posted double digit wins recently, which is something Takarafuji has hardly ever managed to achieve even when lower down the banzuke.

But maybe sustained under-achievement shouldn't be the basis for a special prize.

[Oskanohana 366]

Disregarding if Onosato's toe or hand touched the ground, I think that Kotonowakazakura earned that torinaoshi by being weak. He had Onosato on his embrace, controlled as he likes, with a clear advantage on the mawashi, where Onosato has shown absolutely nothing in his whole career. He could've let him stew for a while (daddy surely taught him that), maybe use the boa constrictor technique when he continually improves his position on the belt on both sides and you escort him out. Really it was his bout to lose and he did a great job of it. Trying a weak-ass uwatenage out of nowhere giving Onosato a chance to recover by the only means he knows, walking forward. If there's a guy in the division who theoretically can stop Onosato on his tracks, grab his mawashi and punish him consistently, he is the guy. Methinks Wakamotoharu is better on the mawashi but he struggles much more to get there. I'll omit the 3 top mongolians as they seem to be struggling to be healthy (especially the yokozuna) and give us a real show of their strength (maybe this is their true strength). This is why I said before that I didn't think Kotonowakazakura had yokozuna prospects and I struggled to see him winning a yusho even in this era where everyone and their grandmothers get a yusho. He'd better pray that Onosato does not improve even a little bit and there is not another mongolian big daddy in the making somewhere, or he'll equal his father's yusho count.

By the way, when was the last time we could say without the shadow of a doubt, that a japanese rikishi is clearly the best one on the banzuke? We'd have to go back to Takanohana at least but he had Akebono matching him there most of the time. Chiyonofuji then? As of right now, Terunofuji is still hanging on by a thread but he'll probably yusho if he pleases. If the yokozuna retired tomorrow, Onosato is probably your best candidate in quite a long time.

As far as the Hidenoumi shove, it was quite intentional. Hakuyozan tried to grab his arms, and Hidenoumi is one of the fellas that will grab you before you fall (as most rikishi are). Not this time though, Hidenoumi clearly knew who his rival was and what he deserved.

[Octofuji 432]

2 minutes ago, Oskanohana said:

Onosato is probably your best candidate in quite a long time.

The other candidate (Takerufuji) also being Japanese of course

[Akinomaki 41,852]

15 hours ago, Reonito said:

16 hours ago, Katooshu said:

I dunno, it looked pretty simultaneous to me, I think rematch was the right call. The hand and toe looked close, but from what I've seen so far there's no moment showing them clearly down/out. 

Even going frame by frame, I don't see any clear evidence.

You can see the sand moving in the first NHK replay after the mono-ii was called - the digest is not out yet, in a few hours here https://www.youtube.com/@NHKWORLDJAPAN/videos - on top of the playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLFEzXnIQVwV9JgQkOMJZM23G8g-wBBWKf

so far https://t.me/NattoSumo/1033 at 34:30m

Asashoryu pointed it out at once, on his twitter, though he was not specific about the fingers touching inside the dohyo: "Where are the shimpan looking at!? The video room, the NHK announcers !? No torinaoshi, Kotozakura won!" o

I hope there will be clear pics later, at least the tabloids should get onto it.

Edited September 21, 2024 by Akinomaki

[Oskanohana 366]

23 minutes ago, Octofuji said:

The other candidate (Takerufuji) also being Japanese of course

He'd have to be tested with a full jo'i schedule at least 2-3 times before making any claims of that, so that's still a long way in the future (4-5 bashos really).

[RabidJohn 2,073]

So Kotozakura has been gifted one by inaction and had one taken away by error. That balances out, IMHO. 
I'll might just have to tell my mum I've finally come across an instance of two wrongs making a right!

[Akinomaki 41,852]

1 hour ago, Akinomaki said:

Asashoryu pointed it out at once, on his twitter, though he was not specific about the fingers touching inside the dohyo: "Where are the shimpan looking at!? The video room, the NHK announcers !? No torinaoshi, Kotozakura won!" o

Not at once, a bit over one hour later https://x.com/Asashoryu/status/1837072672016191644

The papers only referred to this tweet, but in the next he is specific: "Don't just say foot, foot. It's the hand, the hand https://x.com/Asashoryu/status/1837073031942001124

[Bunbukuchagama 985]

Asashoryu is blind.

[Andreas21 221]

Where was this Hoshoryu during the basho? He should be fighting for the Yusho every other basho. Such a pity. Are they twins which swap all the time?

Onosato was lucky indeed. In his expression, he couldn't even believe himself. His hand touched down, the toe slid out, and the final touchdown earlier as well. Thrice lucky. Kotozakura surely was so mad, he couldn't really fight the Torinaoshi.

Still, I'm happy for the next Ozeki, and possibly Yokozuna soon.

[Yarimotsu 645]

10 hours ago, Katooshu said:

I dunno, it looked pretty simultaneous to me

It's a matter of frames as I said, but you can find a difference:

https://ibb.co/xJpdK3W
https://ibb.co/rvwkJqH
https://ibb.co/6HfWqxz

Images 2 and 3 are 2 frames apart, image 2 is 2 frames after Onosato takes off and by image 3 Kotozakura's right heel is still in play and left heel is yet to touch outside the ring while Onosato has completely left it.

[dingo 1,484]

We can analyse and argue about the frames endlessly, but the shimpan have to make the decision within minutes and without seeing any video. If in doubt, torinaoshi is the right decision in my opinion. That also applies to the cases earlier this basho where for some reason they didn't call it. 

[Katooshu 3,485]

Wow, Kayo has pooped on Takerufuji's party, at least for the moment. 

[Jakusotsu 6,402]

1 hour ago, Katooshu said:

Wow, Kayo has pooped on Takerufuji's party, at least for the moment. 

Asakoryu pooped back.

[I am the Yokozuna 222]

11 hours ago, Oskanohana said:

 By the way, when was the last time we could say without the shadow of a doubt, that a japanese rikishi is clearly the best one on the banzuke?

Not yet in my mind, but probably getting there. I have seen so many false dawns that I refuse to get into that debate