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Kyushu 2024 discussion (results)

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Just now, RabidJohn said:

He's got his 1st yusho much sooner than Kisenosato did. 

There's no Harumafuji, Kakuryu, and Hakuho to take all of them from him.  Kisenosato had 5* 13 win tournaments and 3 12 win tournament before his yusho, and didn't even fight a playoff in any of them when in almost any era that would have given him at least one yusho, and these days might be something like 4 yusho.  This is Kotozakura's only 2nd 12 win tournament; that he got 14 earlier than Kisenosato is a good sign, but Kisenosato was fighting much better competition at the top end.

*Technically a 6th at M4 that doesn't count for as much as he faced only 3 sanyaku and lots of mid maegashira.

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43 minutes ago, Gurowake said:

It seems reasonable that Wakamotoharu could be promoted to Ozeki next basho with a good Yusho.  His schedule in his M3 basho really isn't that bad, and fairly equivalent to Tochinoshin's during his Ozeki run from the same rank.  While the latter had more wins over 3 tournaments than WMH can possibly get, I'd think that 13Y giving 34 wins + Yusho starting from M3 might be good enough.  Anything more than that I'd wager definitely would.

I don't think they'd promote him, even with any kind of yusho (snowball's chance in hell of that happening, anyway). Dude's been hardly stellar or even consistent in the joi, and there's no reason they'd think one fluke tournament would change that.

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34 minutes ago, Gurowake said:

There's no Harumafuji, Kakuryu, and Hakuho to take all of them from him.  Kisenosato had 5* 13 win tournaments and 3 12 win tournament before his yusho, and didn't even fight a playoff in any of them when in almost any era that would have given him at least one yusho, and these days might be something like 4 yusho.  This is Kotozakura's only 2nd 12 win tournament; that he got 14 earlier than Kisenosato is a good sign, but Kisenosato was fighting much better competition at the top end.

*Technically a 6th at M4 that doesn't count for as much as he faced only 3 sanyaku and lots of mid maegashira.

Agreed, recency bias is strong, people are forgetting what beasts the Mongols were. Kotozakura would get thrown around like a ragdoll.

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1 hour ago, Gurowake said:

There's no Harumafuji, Kakuryu, and Hakuho to take all of them from him. 

No, as I mentioned earlier, he has 11 other makuuchi yusho winners in the top division (at least eight of whom could win again) to take all of them from him.

Thus far, though, Kotozakura's rise has been steady but continuous. I'd argue that Kisenosato quickly plateaued at what would have been yokozuna level if he could have achieved the promotion earlier. So yeah, Kotozakura's probably had it a bit easier.

Edited by RabidJohn

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What an end to the already exciting basho! Kotozakura finally gets his long-awaited first yusho and the year ends with a proper ozeki fight. Although the end was bitterly disappointing to Hoshoryu who was in excellent shape throughout the basho, he will get other chances if he manages to stay in this shape. And props to Kotozakura who managed to take his solid, stable sumo to another level, outlasting Hoshoryu's attack and a serious throw attempt. I have to admit up to the last few days I didn't believe he would remain with only 1 loss, but he outdid my expectations. As @RabidJohn also mentioned, to me he seems a true follower to Kisenosato's style, and as a bonus he didn't have to wait as long for his first championship. Congrats for a well deserved yusho!

A few other post-basho observations.

I have to give some recognition to Shishi. Yes, he ended up 5-10 but he wasn't as hopelessly outwrestled as I thought he would be. His senshuraku match against Takarafuji stood out for me as he continuously managed to deny Takarafuji a belt grip and won with a smart use of makikae. Back to juryo for now but I'm sure he'll be back.

Hokutofuji salvaged a pretty ok basho in the end, ending up with 7-8 after a pretty tough start. Hopefully he'll manage to stick around in makuuchi for a while longer as I quite like him.

A step back for Oho as he couldn't maintain his shape from the last few basho. But he's still young and has the tools, it's just taking him time to climb to the top. I'm sure he'll be in sanyaku at some point.

Lots to look forward to in January, can't wait for the next basho!

 

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15 minutes ago, Gospodin said:

Eleven different yusho winners in Makuuchi. I doubt I will see that again in my life.

It's Kotozakura + 11 others. Plus Asanoyama...so you might see even more before too long

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4 hours ago, Gurowake said:

There's no Harumafuji, Kakuryu, and Hakuho to take all of them from him. 

Could we call that time the era of the mongolian trifecta from now on?

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8 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

In general, loads of bout finishes are falsely getting dismissed as slippiotoshi by fans these days that actually were the result of the winner making the loser lose his balance. Serious pet peeve of mine.

After the bout Hoshoryu himself stated that his sumo content was good, and that he slipped. And that might have been his perception in the moment, but Kotozakura clearly caused him to lose balance with his nice defensive thrust. 

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I've just now caught the yusho interview, in which the NHK guy asked about him following exactly in his grandfather's footsteps by getting his 1st yusho at 27yrs old in his 5th basho as ozeki.

What a storyline!

And how come it's the first I'm hearing of it?

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9 hours ago, Asashosakari said:
14 hours ago, Godango said:

I at first was crestfallen thinking Hoshoryu slipped. But definitely is was great awareness and timing from Kotozakura. It also discredits his recovery from the throw attempt to imply he didn't win decisively. A win via superior defense is a solid win. 

In general, loads of bout finishes are falsely getting dismissed as slippiotoshi by fans these days that actually were the result of the winner making the loser lose his balance. Serious pet peeve of mine.

I would really like to let this go but I can't. I have watched this one over and over and I can't see what Kotozakura did to win the bout. He made a sort of slow, slapping movement with his right hand which may have made some contact with the left side of Hoshoryu's head but that was the sum total of his aggression.  For a legitimate hatakikomi there needs to be some causal connection between the "slap" and the "down" and I just did not see it here.

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23 minutes ago, Tigerboy1966 said:

I would really like to let this go but I can't. I have watched this one over and over and I can't see what Kotozakura did to win the bout. He made a sort of slow, slapping movement with his right hand which may have made some contact with the left side of Hoshoryu's head but that was the sum total of his aggression.  For a legitimate hatakikomi there needs to be some causal connection between the "slap" and the "down" and I just did not see it here.

I'm talking about the sum total of what happens in bouts. People act as though a rikishi losing his footing somehow happens in a complete vacuum whenever there isn't a single "big hit" that it can 100% be ascribed to, when the vast majority of cases are actually the result of gradual opponent activity that destabilised his position to the point of him becoming susceptible even to smaller hits. Whether that qualifies as enough to be called hatakikomi is honestly completely irrelevant to me.

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1 hour ago, Tigerboy1966 said:

I would really like to let this go but I can't. I have watched this one over and over and I can't see what Kotozakura did to win the bout. He made a sort of slow, slapping movement with his right hand which may have made some contact with the left side of Hoshoryu's head but that was the sum total of his aggression.  For a legitimate hatakikomi there needs to be some causal connection between the "slap" and the "down" and I just did not see it here.

 

1 hour ago, Asashosakari said:

I'm talking about the sum total of what happens in bouts. People act as though a rikishi losing his footing somehow happens in a complete vacuum whenever there isn't a single "big hit" that it can 100% be ascribed to, when the vast majority of cases are actually the result of gradual opponent activity that destabilised his position to the point of him becoming susceptible even to smaller hits. Whether that qualifies as enough to be called hatakikomi is honestly completely irrelevant to me.

I think Asashosakari put it better than I could. But to bite at the kimarite semantics -- what else would you call it?

It's certainly not a Tsukite, which would suggest Kotozakura had no significant contact with Hoshoryu.

Kotozakura successfully defended a throw attempt; resulting in Hoshoryu's balance being compromised. Hoshoryu's center of gravity was then such that a well-placed push to the neck/shoulder area from Kotozakura led to Hoshoryu falling forwards and making contact with the dohyo.

Hatakikomi all day, as a result of superior balance, defence and technique. 

Edited by Godango
every now and then I can be bothered fixing typos
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1 hour ago, Tigerboy1966 said:

I would really like to let this go but I can't. I have watched this one over and over and I can't see what Kotozakura did to win the bout. He made a sort of slow, slapping movement with his right hand which may have made some contact with the left side of Hoshoryu's head but that was the sum total of his aggression.  For a legitimate hatakikomi there needs to be some causal connection between the "slap" and the "down" and I just did not see it here.

Some hatakikomi are brutal whacks that practically fell the opponent like a tree.  Others are slaps that take account of the opponents' unbalanced position.  Some are taps that guide an opponent who is already heading down.  Some are incidental contact that occur before the opponent slips or stumbles.  Since tsukite and tsukihiza don't allow for any contact (and are embarrassing to the opponent), there isn't a kimarite for, say, touching an opponent while he's slipping on loose sand, so it's called hatakikomi.  Kintamayama is right, and they should come up with a sufficiently impressive-sounding non-technique that describes a slippiotoshiAnd maybe wet down that surface more often.

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38 minutes ago, Godango said:

Kotozakura successfully defended a throw attempt; resulting in Hoshoryu's balance being compromised. Hoshoryu's center of gravity was then such that a well-played push to the neck/shoulder area from Kotozakura led to Hoshoryu falling forwards and making contact with the dohyo.

Generally speaking, there appears to be this weird, mostly subconscious, idea in many fans that talent at sumo shows itself primarily in utterly dominating an opponent and winning with some really obvious technique. That bouts among very evenly matched top-level rikishi actually often come down to doing the little things right seems to be somewhere between underappreciated and incomprehensible. Many other rikishi might well have failed to capitalize on the opportunity to finish the match right where Kotozakura did...too slow to react, didn't see the opening, and so on. But if just nothing had happened at that moment, most fans (me included) wouldn't have thought that anything was missing.

Edited by Asashosakari
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9 hours ago, Gurowake said:

There's no Harumafuji, Kakuryu, and Hakuho to take all of them from him.  Kisenosato had 5* 13 win tournaments and 3 12 win tournament before his yusho, and didn't even fight a playoff in any of them when in almost any era that would have given him at least one yusho, and these days might be something like 4 yusho.  This is Kotozakura's only 2nd 12 win tournament; that he got 14 earlier than Kisenosato is a good sign, but Kisenosato was fighting much better competition at the top end.

 

I remember saying this a lot about Kise at the time, that he did Yokozuna level sumo for literally years but couldn't quite get past the physical and mental hurdle of beating Hakuho, Harumafuji and Kakaryu at the right time to allow him to win a yusho. The only rikishi that had a better winning record against Hakuho when he was in his prime than Kise did, were Asashoryu and Harumafuji. Compare Kise to all the other Ozeki during that period that didn't get a rope and their winning records aren't even close to Kise's. 

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Kotozakura uses his right arm to push down on Hoshoryu and Hoshoryu immediately falls to the ground - clearly those are connected. An aggressive Hoshoryu was shuffling his feet following a throw attempt, so he wasn't firmly planted, and Kotozakura is a very powerful 400 pounder, so I don't see what the mystery is. 

Hoshoryu would already be yokozuna if bonus points were awarded for winning in style, but many of his losses are ho-hum as in the manner above. 

Edited by Katooshu
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3 hours ago, WAKATAKE said:

Hakkaku has declared both Kotozakura and Hoshoryu to be on tsuna runs, citing that 14 and 13 wins are qualifying results. Takadagawa while not confirming Hakkaku's sentiment, did not outright deny them to be on tsuna runs either.

https://www.nikkansports.com/battle/sumo/news/202411240001184.html

Thanks. So Hoshoryu can become a Yokozuna if he wins January tournament with at least 13 wins? 

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3 minutes ago, visitor_22 said:

Thanks. So Hoshoryu can become a Yokozuna if he wins January tournament with at least 13 wins? 

I took it that the 13 and 14 win reference was to this basho, saying that both are good enough for them to be on runs next basho (it was said before the bouts on day 15). He wasn't setting a minimum number of wins to take the rope if either win the January  basho. 

That said, the only thing worse than my reading and writing in Japanese is my speaking and listening, so would love for someone better versed than me to provide a summary! 

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1 hour ago, Tochinofuji said:

I took it that the 13 and 14 win reference was to this basho, saying that both are good enough for them to be on runs next basho (it was said before the bouts on day 15). He wasn't setting a minimum number of wins to take the rope if either win the January  basho. 

That said, the only thing worse than my reading and writing in Japanese is my speaking and listening, so would love for someone better versed than me to provide a summary! 

You are correct. Hakkaku said, prior to the final bout, that regardless of who won or lost, 14 and 13 wins are a big deal, and that they'll have a chance (at a Tsuna run) next basho, and that he expects there to be a new yokozuna minted sometime early next year.

Edited by Kaninoyama
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Now watch both Kotozakura and Hoshoryu totally fail on Hatsu basho and someone like Onokatsu picking up the yusho... Hmm, I thought we had a thread for these predictions.. 

 

(for the record, I do not want either of them to fail and would be overjoyed if we finally get a new yokozuna) 

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I kinda liked the basho. In fact I would say that the prospects for 2025 are bright. Sumo is well past the era of dominant rikishi and each tournament is an opportunity for nearly everyone with the necessary amount of ambition, health and luck.

Speaking of health: I doubt that Tamawashi will retire in 2025. The guy is standing his ground against opponents that could be his children.

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