Gaspode 8 Posted May 27 I noticed there was a big drop in rikishi numbers during this period. No doubt it had something to do with the restructuring of the Sumo Association in '67/8, but I haven't been able to find out why those changes led to lower numbers of rikishi. Does anyone know more about this? I have tried using Google/Wikipedia in Japanese (results here). The translation tool in Chrome seems to work well, but I didn't find anything to explain why around 100 rikishi left in a year. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tsuchinoninjin 1,252 Posted May 28 Some time ago I was reading a bunch of old NSK charters trying to figure something else out and in one older one I found that makushita rikishi could be paid in the same way as juryo and makuuchi rikishi (i.e. a salary and not just a stipend). However, I have never read anything about this actually happening but my consumption of sumo material describing that era is no where absolute (I would say basically non-existent). So it could be that wages were reduced at the same time as the divisions got reconfigured. I had the same question before, but the reality is that most of this is written in paper books - very little historical stuff (like pre2000) is digitized from Japan to the net. I can dive in again and see. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tsuchinoninjin 1,252 Posted May 29 Ok, found more stuff out. From September 1957 until December 1967, there was a system implemented that if rikishi didn't reach makushita within 20 basho (some time later changed to 30 basho) their training stipend would be eliminated. So actually retirements throughout this period were high (for sandanme and below). The black line is retirements, red line is new deshi, and blue bars is total rikishi count. However, the fact that they were required to reach makushita makes me STRONGLY suspect that this is because makushita rikishi were getting a salary in this period. This elimination of stipend for slow risers was to cut costs. In end of 1967/ beginning of 1968 there was a massive reform undertaken of the NSK (日本相撲協会の組織改革) which massively changed the governance structure, including reducing director positions from 15 to 10 (again, to cut costs). My guess again is that makushita salaries were on the chopping block at the same time to cut costs causing a mass exit of makushita rikishi (where as before the mass retirements were coming from sandanme and below). I have a few good keywords now to maybe find some actual hard evidence that makushita rikishi were getting salary and it getting eliminated in the 1968 reforms. 5 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tsuchinoninjin 1,252 Posted May 29 I found more tangentially related information today, probably some or all of this is known to some members here. From here: https://dl.ndl.go.jp/view/download/digidepo_999435_po_153.pdf?contentNo=1 When Futabayama was taking over as riji in 1957, the sumo association started getting a lot of heat for taking profit when that was not their status, especially through the tea house ticket distribution system - essentially being accused of self-scalping the tickets. Anyway, this seems to be the catalyst for cost-cutting steps described in previous posts. Strangely, the same section also intertwines a 1971 incident that exposed yakuza influence and also junior high school students participating in basho (I assume without officially joining a heya). Anyway, this book might be a good grab for this era: https://www.amazon.co.jp/激動の相撲昭和史-高永-武敏/dp/4583028164/ 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 18,867 Posted May 29 (edited) 22 hours ago, Tsuchinoninjin said: However, the fact that they were required to reach makushita makes me STRONGLY suspect that this is because makushita rikishi were getting a salary in this period. This elimination of stipend for slow risers was to cut costs. FWIW, I don't think that "time limit indicates existence of salaries" logical inference works, because simply reaching makushita would not have meant drawing a corresponding salary, only staying there. I suspect it's primarily that the training subsidy time limits were meant to dissuade shisho from simply stockpiling rikishi for their income potential. As your graph shows, there was no shortage of people wanting to be rikishi in the 1950s and early 1960s. (Many thanks for the information, BTW - I'd never seen the specific details. And that finally puts some meat on the bone of that - still obviously outdated - claim in some 1980s books that "rikishi who don't reach makushita in five years must retire".) I think we would have heard about salaries in makushita anyway, considering salaries for sekitori only got started in 1957. Edited May 29 by Asashosakari Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tsuchinoninjin 1,252 Posted May 29 3 minutes ago, Asashosakari said: FWIW, I don't think that "time limit indicates existence of salaries" logical inference works, because simply reaching makushita would not have meant drawing a corresponding salary, only staying there. I suspect it's primarily that the training subsidy time limits were meant to dissuade shisho from simply stockpiling rikishi for their income potential. As your graph shows, there was no shortage of people wanting to be rikishi in the 1950s and early 1960s. (Many thanks for the information, BTW - I'd never seen the specific details. And that finally puts some meat on the bone of that - still obviously outdated - claim in some 1980s books that "rikishi who don't reach makushita in five years must retire".) I think we would have heard about salaries in makushita anyway, considering salaries for sekitori only got started in 1957. Unfortunately the bit about the subsidy time limits only comes from a chiebukuro post, but look at the person's other sumo answers they seem to know what they are talking about. Unfortunately (again) they only link to the website I pulled the graph from which doesn't have much other information: https://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/question_detail/q11262149976?__ysp=MTk1N%2BW5tOOAgOS4ieauteebruOAgOW8lemAgA%3D%3D I'll be getting a Japanese phone number this summer, so I should be able to contact them directly if it comes to that. Anyway, maybe Makushita didn't get paid the same way as sekitori, but I really want to redig up those articles of incorporation. I have a good idea of what year they are from now so I just have to refind it. I'm going to save all the interesting documents I find this time to a drive :/ 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Asashosakari 18,867 Posted May 29 12 minutes ago, Asashosakari said: I think we would have heard about salaries in makushita anyway, considering salaries for sekitori only got started in 1957. Speaking of which... 26 minutes ago, Tsuchinoninjin said: When Futabayama was taking over as riji in 1957, the sumo association started getting a lot of heat for taking profit when that was not their status, especially through the tea house ticket distribution system - essentially being accused of self-scalping the tickets. Anyway, this seems to be the catalyst for cost-cutting steps described in previous posts. Most of the heat was taken by then-rijicho ex-Tsunenohana AFAIK, and it was said to have contributed to his suicide attempt, after which he was succeeded by ex-Futabayama. My guess would be that the cost cutting in other areas was the result of the newly introduced sekitori salaries soaking up a lot of money, but I'm into the realm of speculation here. They did gradually reduce the number of sekitori spots from that point forward, even before the additional hard cut in 1967. 26 minutes ago, Tsuchinoninjin said: Strangely, the same section also intertwines a 1971 incident that exposed yakuza influence and also junior high school students participating in basho (I assume without officially joining a heya). I can't say anything about the yakuza stuff, but middle school(-age) kids competing in professional sumo was normal until 1971, and they were definitely heya members like any other. My understanding is just that the political winds changed and people in government began to think that it was inappropriate, so the Kyokai was forced to adopt regulations limiting its recruiting to middle school-graduated applicants. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Koorifuu 888 Posted May 30 Tangentially relevant to the "minimum age" conversation. The late Araiwa has affirmed, on this very forum, that some of the recruits were "from orphanages" and "as young as 12 years old", and would spend years on lower divisions. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites