Hokuseiho Out- Hakuho Demoted - Miyagino-beya Closing

[Yamanashi 3,690]

25 minutes ago, Kaninoyama said:

Unlike his shisho? 

No comparison.

[rokudenashi 290]

Tamagaki-oyakata (ex-Tomonohana) will be taking over Miyagino-beya for the foreseeable 

https://www.nikkansports.com/battle/sumo/news/202402260000598.html

[Asashosakari 18,674]

32 minutes ago, rokudenashi said:

Tamagaki-oyakata (ex-Tomonohana) will be taking over Miyagino-beya for the foreseeable 

https://www.nikkansports.com/battle/sumo/news/202402260000598.html

Sponichi adds that Magaki (ex-Ishiura) was supposedly asked but declined - however, I'm not sure how much stock to put into that claim, as Sponichi had previously declared him "likely" to be chosen by the ichimon, so they might just be covering for why they got that wrong. Other papers had been more circumspect in their comments on the topic.

The Sponichi article also re-emphasizes that Tamagaki's appointment as acting shisho is only for Haru basho, following which Miyagino-beya is set to move into joint custody of Isegahama-ichimon. (That really doesn't sound practical in the slightest to me, though; I wouldn't be surprised if they'll just decide to continue with Tamagaki in the end.) For now, the main point is to give the Miyagino wrestlers the opportunity to participate in Haru basho, as there's apparently a "no shisho = no competition" Kyokai rule.

The Miyagino-beya rikishi will begin training in Osaka for the upcoming tournament tomorrow, with Tamagaki expected to join them the day after at the latest. Well-experienced at 59 years of age and with his unique background of having worked as a high school teacher for several years before he turned to pro sumo at age 27, he's seen as the man to right the good ship Miyagino - quite possibly the only man trusted to be able to do it within the group, according to unattributed comments in Nikkan's article.

[rokudenashi 290]

The comment from the Nikkan article stating that “nobody else in the ichimon can take on the role” certainly suggests to me that Tamagaki will end up with longer-term custody of the stable, but for now it’s not feasible to make such commitments without seeing how the arrangement plays out during the next basho.

Tamagaki has long been a “what-if” for me in terms of stable leadership; given his background and tendencies I think he’d have made a great stablemaster. Better late than never I guess.

Edited February 26 by rokudenashi

[Naganoyama 5,819]

2 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

...give the Miyagino wrestlers the opportunity to participate in Haru basho, as there's apparently a "no shisho = no competition" Kyokai rule.

...

They don't appear to apply that rule when the shisho has died. Shikoroyama Beya rikishi were allowed to compete in  the Hatsu Basho even though moto-Homasho was not made stable master until last week. I guess he's been de facto shisho all the while.

[Ryoshishokunin 260]

Given that being dead doesn't seem to inhibit ownership of kabu, the headless heya was presumably under past management in the interim.  

[Katooshu 3,090]

Tomonohana/Tamagaki - 173cm/113kg. Another small recruit for Miyagino. One of my favourite rikishi from past generations - very entertaining and skillful. He had one match where his top knot came completely undone and he was zooming around the dohyo like Tarzan.

Check out his spooky song and dance skills

 

Edited February 26 by Katooshu

[dingo 1,133]

Will Miyagino be allowed to participate in the heya life, training etc as an advisor of sorts or is he completely cut off from his own heya? The latter would be quite rough for him imo. 

[Akinomaki 39,585]

33 minutes ago, dingo said:

Will Miyagino be allowed to participate in the heya life, training etc as an advisor of sorts or is he completely cut off from his own heya? The latter would be quite rough for him imo. 

He'll be heya attached oyakata and therefor coach, like Magaki. But will heya coach Daikiho continue? - employed by Hakuho.

The latest Weekly Post rumor is that the heya will be gone and part of another for at least 10 years. o

MsTD Matsui may be the last to join, if Hakuho isn't shisho, getting new recruits is a problem.

[Yarimotsu 515]

2 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

He'll be heya attached oyakata and therefor coach, like Magaki. But will heya coach Daikiho continue? - employed by Hakuho.

The latest Weekly Post rumor is that the heya will be gone and part of another for at least 10 years. o

MsTD Matsui may be the last to join, if Hakuho isn't shisho, getting new recruits is a problem.

I'm not sure how much sense this makes, I wasn't following sumo in the Takanohana oyakata days. But how exactly does Hakuho take this? Surely he won't bide time for a decade. Is it not much more likely he regains control of his wrestlers and stable much quicker? And if he had to open a new stable instead, would the ichimon or the association be blocking that somehow?

Is the most likely outcome that he simply leaves the association?

[Gurowake 3,886]

On 25/02/2024 at 01:29, BuBa said:

I am quite convinced that harassing and beating at different degrees and for different reasons still continues in almost all of the stables as I write. It is part of sumo and that is why this comes up again and again.

It's hard for me to believe that the level of sadism displayed by some of the reported actions would be seen as acceptable at all, but I've heard stories recounted by people involved in incidents that I thought similarly sadistic that the person involved in setting it up just laughed it off as the type of prank that was common in those days.  The stories I remember though didn't involve hurting people physically or economically in as direct of ways as Hokuseiho may have.  That doesn't mean though that such kinds of effects aren't found in the sport still, and that Miyagino-beya and Hokuseiho's only problem was that they got caught, and some of that might be anti-Hakuho bias.  If it means that this kind of thing stops in other heyas, that would be great, but I'm more concerned that this type of thing is so widespread and Hokuseiho was just imitating it, meaning that the other heya may just see the fact that he was caught as evidence of how bad of an idea it is to be a foreigner, as the Japanese don't rat out their own like that.  It may well have been that no other *foreigner* acted this way before, and perhaps Hokuseiho thought he wasn't a foreigner because he had a Japanese shusshin, but that's not how it works in reality.

[Asashosakari 18,674]

5 hours ago, Naganoyama said:

They don't appear to apply that rule when the shisho has died. Shikoroyama Beya rikishi were allowed to compete in  the Hatsu Basho even though moto-Homasho was not made stable master until last week. I guess he's been de facto shisho all the while.

No, they did the same thing there:

On 28/12/2023 at 10:51, Akinomaki said:

The rijikai yesterday acknowledged Tatsutagawa as acting shisho for the Hatsu basho - but for some (I guess money) reason he still doesn't take the name and the heya officially. The reports always say: it is planned that ...

The NSK announced it today.

http://www.jiji.com/jc/article?k=2023122800692

[themistyseas 222]

39 minutes ago, Akinomaki said:

 MsTD Matsui may be the last to join, if Hakuho isn't shisho, getting new recruits is a problem.

One of the reasons I don't buy the 10 year rumour is exactly this. That's as much a problem for sumo generally as it is for the heya.

I'm not sure you need a full set of fingers to be able to count shisho who are prolific recruiters.

Like Kakuryu said in that recent Sumo Prime Time, it's more and more difficult to convince recruits (or parents of recruits) to join sumo already if they aren't title winners who think they will go all the way to the top. And they are probably not wrong that in the current economic situation there are probably better job prospects in other walks of life with a full education if you aren't leaving school early to do professional sumo. The punishment as announced seems rational but there's no reason to go overboard and effectively make him quit.

15 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

No, they did the same thing there:

On 28/12/2023 at 16:51, Akinomaki said:

The rijikai yesterday acknowledged Tatsutagawa as acting shisho for the Hatsu basho - but for some (I guess money) reason he still doesn't take the name and the heya officially.

This kind of makes me wonder, per @Akinomaki's comment on the Ishiura danpatsushiki thread, whether it may still be called Miyagino-beya as Miyagino is the owner of the heya, even if Tamagaki is temporary acting shisho?

I guess we'll find out. There could be some real fun times ahead for whoever makes those sumodb kabu history edits :)

[Asashosakari 18,674]

4 minutes ago, themistyseas said:

This kind of makes me wonder, per @Akinomaki's comment on the Ishiura danpatsushiki thread, whether it may still be called Miyagino-beya as Miyagino is the owner of the heya, even if Tamagaki is temporary acting shisho?

For Haru, it'll definitely be Miyagino-beya. What's going to happen in the custody phase afterwards, who knows.

[Tsuchinoninjin 1,244]

It’s a minor detail, but Hakuho owns the Miyagino building outright, yeah? Is Tamagaki really going to search for a new place just to retire in 5 ish years?

 

[Leoben 120]

Depending on how long this "custody" situation is supposed to go on, this reads like they're trying to get him to quit of his own volition. Companies do this all the time when they don't want to pay severance to very senior roles. We'll reassign your team or put you in some dead-end project until you're sick of it and leave on your own. A good friend that lives in Tokyo told me that it's common over there as there's such a taboo around firing people of a certain status.

Edited February 26 by Leoben

[Asashosakari 18,674]

37 minutes ago, Tsuchinoninjin said:

It’s a minor detail, but Hakuho owns the Miyagino building outright, yeah? Is Tamagaki really going to search for a new place just to retire in 5 ish years?

They're presently renting (I presume, anyway) the former Azumazeki-beya premises, with ex-Takamiyama still living upstairs. 

Interestingly, in the moving-in coverage from a year and a half ago it was claimed that Hakuho was going to live in the heya (and it sounds like he was not doing that in the old Miyagino-beya premises previously). He didn't follow through with that.

Edited February 26 by Asashosakari

[Tsuchinoninjin 1,244]

57 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

They're presently renting (I presume, anyway) the former Azumazeki-beya premises, with ex-Takamiyama still living upstairs. 

Interestingly, in the moving-in coverage from a year and a half ago it was claimed that Hakuho was going to live in the heya (and it sounds like he was not doing that in the old Miyagino-beya premises previously). He didn't follow through with that.

I see, they didn’t get that far yet. I couldn’t find much about it in my searches so it makes sense I was conflating two things in my mind.

[Kaninoyama 1,663]

6 hours ago, Leoben said:

Depending on how long this "custody" situation is supposed to go on, this reads like they're trying to get him to quit of his own volition. Companies do this all the time when they don't want to pay severance to very senior roles. We'll reassign your team or put you in some dead-end project until you're sick of it and leave on your own. A good friend that lives in Tokyo told me that it's common over there as there's such a taboo around firing people of a certain status.

Agree. This has all the makings of a classic Japanese-style indirect forcing out. There is simply no way Hakuho is OK with the extended humiliation of going from the GOAT with his own heya to demoted attached coach for the next several years, so he can be "properly trained" to run his own heya (something no other new oyakata has to undergo). 

Edited February 27 by Kaninoyama

[Asashosakari 18,674]

7 hours ago, Kaninoyama said:

Agree. This has all the makings of a classic Japanese-style indirect forcing out. There is simply no way Hakuho is OK with the extended humiliation of going from the GOAT with his own heya to demoted attached coach for the next several years, so he can be "properly trained" to run his own heya (something no other new oyakata has to undergo). 

I'm not sure that the Kyokai is a coherent enough organization to say that. There are almost definitely people who would like to see Hakuho gone, and as far as his relationship to the Kyokai powers as a whole is concerned, I'd certainly sign off on the "this must feel like humiliation" view. But is it the same within Isegahama-ichimon specifically? And even if it is, will the attitudes remain unchanged once Isegahama-oyakata is largely out of the picture next year and Asakayama (who generally seems to be pretty unideological) becomes the group leader for all intents and purposes? I find it hard to believe that there wouldn't be anybody that looks at what's meant to happen over the next months/years as a genuine second chance for Hakuho.

Edited February 27 by Asashosakari

[Kaninoyama 1,663]

44 minutes ago, Asashosakari said:

I'm not sure that the Kyokai is a coherent enough organization to say that. There are almost definitely people who would like to see Hakuho gone, and as far as his relationship to the Kyokai powers as a whole is concerned, I'd certainly sign off on the "this must feel like humiliation" view. But is it the same within Isegahama-ichimon specifically? And even if it is, will the attitudes remain unchanged once Isegahama-oyakata is largely out of the picture next year and Asakayama (who generally seems to be pretty unideological) becomes the group leader for all intents and purposes? I find it hard to believe that there wouldn't be anybody that looks at what's meant to happen over the next months/years as a genuine second chance for Hakuho.

I don't disagree with your view, but I'm looking at it mostly from Hakuho's perspective. I just don't see how someone as prideful as he will meekly accept this level of punishment--unprecedented to my knowledge (but please do correct me if I'm wrong), especially for a Dai-yokozuna. And surely those who dolled out this punishment must be well aware of what a bitter pill it will be for Miyagino to swallow.

But in any case we will certainly see how things unfold in the coming months when everything is actually put into motion. 

[Asashosakari 18,674]

Yeah, I'm basically just wondering, "Is there anything his ichimon mates could say or do to soften the blow to his ego?" Still assuming that they even want to, of course.

It might not help, though, that the ichimon itself won't be able to decide when Hakuho's sentence has been fully served. That's going to make it hard for them to give him some sort of roadmap. (And I don't expect the rijikai to offer anything like that, much as I hope that they do.)

[Wakawakawaka 136]

Maybe Hakuho is so competitive and with such a big ego that he will persist out of spite, 'They think they can break the great Hakuho, eh? I'll show them! I will be 100x more humble than anyone has ever been!'

[Kamitsuumi 384]

Is naming an acting stablemaster something mandated by the kyokai, or ichimon-internal damage control? It seems to me that it's the latter

[RabidJohn 1,646]

22 hours ago, Leoben said:

Depending on how long this "custody" situation is supposed to go on, this reads like they're trying to get him to quit of his own volition. Companies do this all the time when they don't want to pay severance to very senior roles. We'll reassign your team or put you in some dead-end project until you're sick of it and leave on your own. A good friend that lives in Tokyo told me that it's common over there as there's such a taboo around firing people of a certain status.

Thank you. This explains the NSK's behaviour towards Hakuho going right back to abolishing ichidai toshiyori.
And it doesn't require any speculation about the Kyokai's finances on my part...

2 hours ago, Wakawakawaka said:

Maybe Hakuho is so competitive and with such a big ego that he will persist out of spite...

I don't believe there's any 'maybe' about it: that's what he's been doing since intai.