Hokuseiho Out- Hakuho Demoted - Miyagino-beya Closing

[Kintamayama 44,349]

4 hours ago, Kamitsuumi said:

That was Hokaho

Yes, that as me as usual, taking a long time to understand what you meant..

 

[themistyseas 226]

1 hour ago, Asashosakari said:

Yeah, that's one aspect I've also been wondering the last couple of days, and I do wonder how widespread a problem it is. Maybe we need another push to consolidate the number of stables to get more oyakata manpower into any one of them...

Something that has bothered me for a while is the distribution of oyakata. I don't know if it's so much the number of heya (especially while the overall number of recruits is decreasing) as much as where the names are focused. Another thing that hasn't come up here is Takashima's defection from Miyagino to Isenoumi a couple years ago. I don't know if the real reason for this ever cropped up, and maybe he just didn't want to be a part of what Hakuho was going to build, but you'd think that having a veteran presence at the heya (ie adult in the room) would help to hopefully mitigate some situations.

It seems absolutely nuts that Kasugano and Isenoumi account for 10% of all elder shares between just the two heya, and Kasugano has another 3 official staffers, supporting a grand total of 31 rikishi.

It feels like now that everyone can be a sanyo, a good use of the role would be using their time to support new oyakata to help them develop. I could be wrong but newer shisho who have a sanyo or very senior oyakata in the backroom team (Oshima when he was Tomozuna, Ikazuchi now with Irumagawa, Hanaregoma with Minatogawa, Oshiogawa with Oguruma, etc) seem to have had it pretty smooth sailing so far. Miyagino obviously had ex-Miyagino until Ishiura needed the share, but Takashima's departure comes into light. Should Sakaigawa be lending Sekinoto (for example) to Takekuma beya for a couple years? Would Naruto have avoided some issues if he were able to borrow someone temporarily from Sadogatake? Should Minezaki be supporting a heya that might need him a bit more than the one he's attached to? I think there's something to be said for maintaining a continuity of culture and history, but equally it seems like the lessons in management shouldn't stop when a recent retiree branches out.

Edited February 24 by themistyseas

[BuBa 72]

I have read and watched so many interviews of former Mongolian sumotori, being beaten and harassed by their mates, crying everyday. Is crying everyday is normal,  Isn’t it the way of sumo? 

[Tochinofuji 372]

2 hours ago, BuBa said:

I have read and watched so many interviews of former Mongolian sumotori, being beaten and harassed by their mates, crying everyday. Is crying everyday is normal,  Isn’t it the way of sumo? 

Not like this. While one can I think make the argument that harsh training and physical "correction", along with blood, sweat, and tears, makes sense and is part of sumo (and many other martial arts), it should only be in service of improving the rikishi/fighter/practitioner. That clearly isn't the case here. Hokuseiho wasn't trying to build up his heyamates through harsh training or make them better as rikishi by correcting behaviour - he was being cruel and sadistic for its own sake. That isn't, and shouldn't, be part of sumo regardless of what you think about whether the current crop are too "soft" when it comes to training and the austere life (which is a different argument and better saved for a more pertinent fact patten). 

[Akinomaki 39,763]

1 hour ago, Tochinofuji said:

3 hours ago, BuBa said:

Isn’t it the way of sumo? 

Not like this

any more - but in the past it was the normal way: humiliating the lower ranks, to show the superiority of the higher ranks, to motivate them to become one of those beating the others, instead of being beaten by them.

[Tochinofuji 372]

22 minutes ago, Akinomaki said:

any more - but in the past it was the normal way: humiliating the lower ranks, to show the superiority of the higher ranks, to motivate them to become one of those beating the others, instead of being beaten by them.

A change then I think for the better personally. 

Edited February 24 by Tochinofuji

[MrGrumpyGills 119]

I'm all for keeping tradition as long it's benefitial (or at least not detrimental) for the people involved. If not, it has to be reevaluated and changed or tossed.

As for Hokuseihō - maybe he considered himself to be some kind of "golden boy" or even a future successor to Hakuhō? He was scouted very young IIRC and Hakuhō stayed in contact with him over the years, so that probably went to his head? Combined with him being bored and somewhat lazy, with a bit of a mean streak to boot, and there we have it

[sumojoann 1,256]

Frankly, I am stunned by these rumors of Hokuseiho’s cruelty, sadism and kleptomania.  It just seems so at odds with so many people’s perception of him, including mine.  To me, he seemed annoyingly passive and lacked the aggression needed to be a successful rikishi.  

I do have a question.  Where was Magaki Oyakata (ex-Ishiura) when all this was presumably occurring right under his nose?  Wasn’t he at the heya pretty much all the time?  

Another question — Is Hokuseiho officially out?  I know he submitted his intai papers.  I haven’t had time to watch the videos yet but in reading all of this thread, I haven’t seen anything confirming if he’s definitely out.  

Does anyone think Miyagino showed favoritism toward Hokuseiho because he is a fellow Mongolian?  

A comment was made that it seemed as though Hokuseiho didn’t really want to be a rikishi.  If all these rumors are found to be true regarding his cruelty, sadism and kleptomania, he sounds like one really disturbed individual in need of treatment (which I hope gets, preferably post-ozumo).  



 

[MrGrumpyGills 119]

34 minutes ago, sumojoann said:

Does anyone think Miyagino showed favoritism toward Hokuseiho because he is a fellow Mongolian? 

Yes, that's quite likely, in my opinion.

[Akinomaki 39,763]

51 minutes ago, sumojoann said:

Is Hokuseiho officially out?  I know he submitted his intai papers.  I haven’t had time to watch the videos yet but in reading all of this thread, I haven’t seen anything confirming if he’s definitely out.

He handed in the papers and they were accepted at the rijikai = officially retired - but he's on the Haru basho banzuke - in time to avoid the intai recommendation that was the penalty awaiting him, he retired by himself, so it wasn't necessary - the rijikai acknowledged that he would have received one. o

But the NSK hasn't published the intai announcement yet, so the day the retirement takes effect may not be fix yet.

[Kaninoyama 1,694]

3 hours ago, MrGrumpyGills said:

I'm all for keeping tradition as long it's benefitial (or at least not detrimental) for the people involved. If not, it has to be reevaluated and changed or tossed.

As for Hokuseihō - maybe he considered himself to be some kind of "golden boy" or even a future successor to Hakuhō? He was scouted very young IIRC and Hakuhō stayed in contact with him over the years, so that probably went to his head? Combined with him being bored and somewhat lazy, with a bit of a mean streak to boot, and there we have it

One of the Japanese sumo columnists interviewed confirmed this--that he thought of himself as not only Hakuho's protege, but something of a nephew as well, and so clearly felt he had special entitlement beyond reproach.  

[Akinomaki 39,763]

Another funny infringement from Hokuseiho - I wonder why I never saw a pic of this: during the Hatsu basho he again came to the basho in a Rolls Royce, though he had been scolded by Hakuho for it. o Apparently it is an NSK rule not to be too pompous.

Unfortunately only a Yahoo trivia page on that: https://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/question_detail/q12293909932

pic (Yahoo can't be viewed in Europe): https://chie-pctr.c.yimg.jp/dk/iwiz-chie/que-12293909932

[MrGrumpyGills 119]

14 minutes ago, Kaninoyama said:

One of the Japanese sumo columnists interviewed confirmed this--that he thought of himself as not only Hakuho's protege, but something of a nephew as well, and so clearly felt he had special entitlement beyond reproach.  

Ahh ok, thanks for mentioning!
That really explains a lot and what a shame to put all of this potential and connection in jeopardy just to play some "pranks". I don't get it.

Edited February 24 by MrGrumpyGills
typo

[Akinomaki 39,763]

On 22/02/2024 at 17:56, Kintamayama said:

On 22/02/2024 at 00:19, Akinomaki said:

It's rather that this was the only reason

I was under the impression that he himself asked to go kyujo, bringing about Ishiura and Hakuhou's wrath, causing them to call him lazy etc . 

The knee and all the talk about it was apparently tatemae, there was no medical certificate yet when the heya applied for his kyujo, though that is usually handed in then. There never was any visible sign of injury.

[Octofuji 327]

3 hours ago, sumojoann said:

I do have a question.  Where was Magaki Oyakata (ex-Ishiura) when all this was presumably occurring right under his nose?  Wasn’t he at the heya pretty much all the time?  

From what this article says the heya has temporary living arrangements, and for most of the time the rikishi are left to their own devices (unless you count Takamiyama/Jesse who lives in the same building).

https://www.nikkansports.com/battle/sumo/news/202402230001264.html

[Yamanashi 3,723]

43 minutes ago, Octofuji said:

From what this article says the heya has temporary living arrangements, and for most of the time the rikishi are left to their own devices (unless you count Takamiyama/Jesse who lives in the same building).

https://www.nikkansports.com/battle/sumo/news/202402230001264.html

That seems to be a problem with new heya -- if the Oyakata hasn't set up residence on site from the beginning, the rikishi don't get 24-hour "snoopervision" and hijinks can ensue.

[BuBa 72]

12 hours ago, Tochinofuji said:

Not like this. While one can I think make the argument that harsh training and physical "correction", along with blood, sweat, and tears, makes sense and is part of sumo (and many other martial arts), it should only be in service of improving the rikishi/fighter/practitioner. That clearly isn't the case here. Hokuseiho wasn't trying to build up his heyamates through harsh training or make them better as rikishi by correcting behaviour - he was being cruel and sadistic for its own sake. That isn't, and shouldn't, be part of sumo regardless of what you think about whether the current crop are too "soft" when it comes to training and the austere life (which is a different argument and better saved for a more pertinent fact patten). 

What you wrote there is your wishful thinking. I am quite convinced that harassing and beating at different degrees and for different reasons still continues in almost all of the stables as I write. It is part of sumo and that is why this comes up again and again. I am not defending Hokuseiho here, nor any other bully out there.

[Tochinofuji 372]

13 minutes ago, BuBa said:

What you wrote there is your wishful thinking. I am quite convinced that harassing and beating at different degrees and for different reasons still continues in almost all of the stables as I write. It is part of sumo and that is why this comes up again and again. I am not defending Hokuseiho here, nor any other bully out there.

I took "Isn't it the way of sumo?" as defending the status quo, and I disagree with it on principle. My apologies if I misunderstood you.

Regardless, it undoubtedly happens, but that doesn't mean it is "the way of sumo" - it undoubtedly happens a lot IN sumo, but that doesn't make it intrinsic to it or something that can't be changed while leaving the core of sumo intact. However that is just an outsider's perspective and may well be wishful thinking (though I don't think that's actually an apt description); but better to wish for an improvement to help save the thing itself rather than just throw one's hands up and say "shikatta ga nai." 

[Akinomaki 39,763]

On 21/02/2024 at 17:18, Akinomaki said:

Hakuho had to sign a contract with the NSK to be accepted as oyakata - could be that the heya is taken from him as a result and Magaki (Ishiura) takes over - a quite recent keiko video (with still the Kyushu banzuke) had the former Miyagino watching keiko, maybe he'll be external advisor now

The heya has Daikiho as coach - recently interviewed by Amita sumo, the 3rd part has yet to be posted, About Hakuoho and training at Miyagino

And plenty of prominent visitor post keiko at the heya (taking part), this one looked like Chikubayama is also coach again, next to Hakuho here (in these videos he is always present, of course), with the Kyushu rankings on the wall, so likely from early/mid December - Hokuseiho at the jungyo

[Bunbukuchagama 688]

[Fashiritētā 169]

You forgot-Too stupid to see what a beautiful gift he wasted.

[Yamanashi 3,723]

Clearly he wouldn't have made Yokozuna anyway -- juuuuust a little short on the 'ol hinkaku.

[Kaninoyama 1,694]

3 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

Clearly he wouldn't have made Yokozuna anyway -- juuuuust a little short on the 'ol hinkaku.

Unlike his shisho? 

[Reonito 1,335]

11 minutes ago, Kaninoyama said:

Unlike his shisho? 

As I recall, any questions in that department did not arise until deep into his tenure at yokozuna, no?

[Kaninoyama 1,694]

7 minutes ago, Reonito said:

As I recall, any questions in that department did not arise until deep into his tenure at yokozuna, no?

True enough. Hakuho himself said in his retirement documentary that he tried to be the model Yokozuna at first. And was, until he became so dominant  that Japanese fans began to root against him as the invincible villain. At which point he decided, screw it, if they're going to hate me anyway, damn the hinkaku, I'll just focus on winning at all costs. 

He did, and we all saw the consequences of that. 

Edited February 25 by Kaninoyama