Rikishi and last names....

[Ryukaze 0]

Why is it that rikishi will use their last name as their shikona, and then change it only upon promotion to a higher rank??? Is this suppoesed to be motivational or...?

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

It might be that the oyakata wants to see what the guy's got, what his strengths & weaknesses are, his character, before he comes up with a shikona to fit the shindeshi as closely as possible. I think famous shikona are held back and reserved for guys seen to have a lot of potential and a fair shot at rising to sanyaku...

[Jonosuke 28]

I think famous shikona are held back and reserved for guys seen to have a lot of potential and a fair shot at rising to sanyaku...

I am pretty sure no one ever will get Futabayama or Taiho.

But I am waiting for Kisenosato deep sixed pretty quick. I just hope Hagiwara gets to Ozeki quick and get his rightful name always meant for him - Takanosato :-P

[Otokonoyama 2,735]

I think famous shikona are held back and reserved for guys seen to have a lot of potential and a fair shot at rising to sanyaku...

I am pretty sure no one ever will get Futabayama or Taiho.

Ozumo's way of "retiring a player's number" :-(

[Mark Buckton 1]

I think famous shikona are held back and reserved for guys seen to have a lot of potential and a fair shot at rising to sanyaku...

I am pretty sure no one ever will get Futabayama or Taiho.

Ozumo's way of "retiring a player's number" :-(

indeedy - and am currently thinking of Taiyo as a 'new addition's name'

[Yoavoshimaru 0]

I think a great shikona for the next promising sanyaku would be Asashio VII. Or is it VIII by now? We haven't had one in a while. We'll probably have another one of those before a Taiho II or Chiyonofuji II. Or even Kitanoumi II for that matter.

[Ivan Sergeyevich 0]

Takasago Oyakata was Asashio V and there was talk about Asashoryu becoming VI at the time of his yokozuna promotion.

[Sasanishiki 57]

Does anyone apart from foreigners get a 'proper' shikona (rather than surname) when they enter sumo? What about those amateurs who come into Makushita 15, do they use their own names to start off with? No doubt someone learned in banzuke spotting will be able to assist.

[Ivan Sergeyevich 0]

That depends on the heya, I'd say. Sadogatake boys seem first (and straight from their first basho onwards) to have their family name prefixed by the familiar Koto; for example Kotomitsuki was originally Kototamiya. Irumagawa guys seem to get their Tsukasa suffix quite early on as well. I'd say there's really no discernible system as some rikishi never abandon their true name (Wajima, Dejima, Jumonji, Terao*...)

* Admittedly his mother's maiden name.

[Asashosakari 18,786]

What about those amateurs who come into Makushita 15, do they use their own names to start off with?

Most of them do use their surname until they make it to Juryo, unless there's a heya tradition to give a shikona right after joining as Ivan mentioned (welcome to the forum btw!), or their surname is already in use, as happened to recent tsukedashi Takamifuji who couldn't go by Yokoyama since there was already an active rikishi by that name.

Edited November 11, 2004 by Asashosakari

[Jonosuke 28]

Does anyone apart from foreigners get a 'proper' shikona (rather than surname) when they enter sumo?

I guess it is pretty much to an oyakata. Some oyakatas believe they want to have their recruits easily identified by others as well some parents/friends/relatives/teachers want to have "their" rikishi to have a certain shikona and the oyakata allows it.

Some have no choice but change it - for instance if you are Kobayashi, well then there is already Kobayashi on the banzuke, you have to have another name.

Most shikonas come from a local landmark where the rikishi came from combined with a unique heya name like Tochi or Asa or Taka etc.

Or in some cases the rikishi himself will come up with his own and request it to the oyakata. One of the latest examples of this had some people wondering. It was by Tatsunami Beya's Sandanme West 5 Yutakamaru - if you read the kanjis in another way it can have a sexural connotation.

Edited November 11, 2004 by Jonosuke

[Asashosakari 18,786]

Or in some cases the rikishi himself will come up with his own and request it to the oyakata. One of the latest examples of this had some people wondering. It was by Tatsunami Beya's Sandanme West 5 Yutakamaru - if you read the kanjis in another way it can have a sexural connotation.

Why do I have a feeling the previous Tatsunami-oyakata wouldn't have allowed that... :-D Guess there are some advantages to having a shisho who's not an old geezer. (Enjoying a beer...)

[Itachi 390]

some rikishi never abandon their true name (Wajima, Dejima, Jumonji, Terao*...)

* Admittedly his mother's maiden name.

In Jumonji's case he returned to his surname. He used to have the shikona Kaigatake but changed to Jumonji after returning to Juryo.

The kanji he used for -take was the same character used in the name of his town Hashikami-cho. It was the Hashi part. I'm not sure that these were common readings for that kanji but in Aomori there are some unusual place names.

Anyone who collected the second set of baseball magazine-sha sumo cards will have an official Kaigatake card since he had earned his first promotion to Juryo just before then. (heisei 10 I believe)

Itachi

[Ivan Sergeyevich 0]

In Jumonji's case he returned to his surname. He used to have the shikona Kaigatake but changed to Jumonji after returning to Juryo.

I should've remembered that. (Laughing...) Thanks for the correction.

[Burainoan 0]

One interesting related point is that right now we appear to have an unprecedented number of sekitori (at one time) using their real names as shikona: Dejima, Kakizoe, Jumonji, Shimotori, Ishide, Katayama...even Harunoyama, if you discount the katakana "no" in the middle. and it wasn't too long ago that Dejima was the first one since Wajima (besides Kitao/Futahaguro) to stay up and keep his name. though Itai may fit in there somewhere....

a curious mini-trend.

[Yoavoshimaru 0]

You know what would be cool, although extremely presumptuous so I don't see it happening any time in the foreseeable future (or FWIW in our lifetimes) -- a Raiden II shikona.

[Itachi 390]

In Jumonji's case he returned to his surname. He used to have the shikona Kaigatake but changed to Jumonji after returning to Juryo.

The kanji he used for -take was the same character used in the name of his town Hashikami-cho. It was the Hashi part.

Oops, of course the kanji I am referring to is not the -take but the KAI in Kaigatake. Take is just the usual character that appears in some place names but Kai here is not ocean but something else. It is the same as the Hashi in Hashikami-cho or Hashikami-dake both just south of Hachinohe on Aomori's pacific coast.

Itachi

[Exil 301]

You know what would be cool, although extremely presumptuous so I don't see it happening any time in the foreseeable future (or FWIW in our lifetimes) -- a Raiden II shikona.

Raiden Tameemon (or the Raiden), was technically Raiden III, wasn't he? If I count correctly (and unless I've misunderstood something): Raiden Tamenosuke (Raiden I), Raiden Nadanosuke (Raiden II), Raiden Tameemon (Raiden III), Raiden Shin'emon (Raiden IV). Possible relation to Rocky movies is unknown to me. (Pulling hair...)

The shikona hasn't been used since the 1870's, though.

BTW, since a shikona has two parts, when is the whole shikona used?

[Jonosuke 28]

the kanji I am referring to is not the -take but the KAI in Kaigatake. Take is just the usual character that appears in some place names but Kai here is not ocean but something else. It is the same as the Hashi in Hashikami-cho or Hashikami-dake both just south of Hachinohe on Aomori's pacific coast.

"KAI" you are thinking of is 階 - a floor as in the second floor of a building.

[Iwagakki 0]

Probably the name Raiden ended with the last Raiden, or was not handed down and the Heya ended, or something, and so in modern times, nobody has "rights" to that name. Kind of "lost in sumo probate" or something like that, so it wouldn't be ever be likely to be resurrected.

[Iwagakki 0]

But I think it would be way cool to see that shikona again, too. even a modified version of it, or a different pronunciation.

[Zeokage 0]

Possible relation to Rocky movies is unknown to me. (Pulling hair...)

Then there would have to be a Raiden V, and constant talk of a Raiden VI which would be his son. ;-)

BTW, since a shikona has two parts, when is the whole shikona used?

I think it's only on the Banzuke, but I could be wrong about the "only".

[Burainoan 0]

The whole shikona is also used when announcing awards - yusho, sansho, etc. - and also on the yusho portraits hanging in Kokugikan, as well as certain other official fuctions (like when he retires).

[Asashosakari 18,786]

actually there cannot be another TAIHO. he was granted ichidai toshiyori status (one generation oyakata) so the name finishes with him. same with kitanoumi and takanohana. those are three shikona we will never see on the dohyo again. chiyonofuji was offered this honour but took kokonoe instead, which in theory at least means we might see another chiyonofuji.

Are you sure about that? My understanding of ichidai toshiyori was that the "retirement" only applies to the shikona as used for the oyakata stock, not as an active fighting name...

[Jonosuke 28]

My understanding of ichidai toshiyori was that the "retirement" only applies to the shikona as used for the oyakata stock, not as an active fighting name...

Asashosakari san is correct in this case but more I thought about this, it could present itself an interesting possibility.

Let's suppose Taiho Oyakata retires (which he will soon). So there will be no Taiho Toshiyori Myoseki which he could give to anyone, should he wish as it's his to begin with then. So there is no oyakata named Taiho nor active rikishi with that name.

Then Roho succeeds beyond all imagination and becomes a yokozuna. So now retired Taiho oyakata asks Odake oyakata to give his shikona to Roho and Odake oyakata as a dutiful son-in-law concurrs. And then it comes to pass...ehem... the new Taiho (formerly old Roho) succeeds now beyond the wildest imagination and becomes a unprecedent record breaking great yokozuna.

The Kyokai is so impressed that they decide to give him one-generation Toshiyori Myoseki to the new Taiho. But wait a minunte here...you are not supposed to have another Taiho as a Toshiyori Myoseki. Hmm....

I guess all it means is that one cannot *inherit* the Myoseki but if you carried it through your active days and you earn it, I guess it will be OK and the old Roho can have one generation Taiho Toshiyori Myoseki again.

But it's an interesting possibility.

Edited November 12, 2004 by Jonosuke