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Muhomatsu

Michinoku beya likely to close

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Otowayama beya will be glad to accept them, probably 

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31 minutes ago, Seregost said:

Otowayama beya will be glad to accept them, probably 

Probably not all of them, assuming my hunch a month ago was correct:

On 27/12/2023 at 16:57, Asashosakari said:

I suppose these moves do substantiate the recent tabloid reporting of major breakdowns within Michinoku-beya. I guess the most likely scenario is that the heya just shuts down in April now and the rikishi will go every which way. Maybe we'll see some more (but not all) of them actually join Otowayama-beya then (...)

The tabloid claim was that some Michinoku rikishi were upset not only with Michinoku's (non-)handling of the abuse allegations in the stable a year ago, but also with Kakuryu's role in it (which I took to mean that he left it all to Michinoku, not that I think he had much choice in the matter).

Although I guess it's possible that everyone who isn't going to Otowayama-beya simply calls it quits altogether.

One thing I wonder: People have been treating it as a foregone conclusion that ozeki Kirishima will be reuniting with Kakuryu in the end, but is he really going to move to another stable where he's going to have no strong training partners again?

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Based on the db, only ~3-4 of the 9 remaining rikishi (not Kirishima) have a real future.  Complicating this is the question: are there still problems among the heya mates?  @Asashosakari, how many do you think will simply retire?

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22 minutes ago, Yamanashi said:

Based on the db, only ~3-4 of the 9 remaining rikishi (not Kirishima) have a real future.  Complicating this is the question: are there still problems among the heya mates?  @Asashosakari, how many do you think will simply retire?

I don't dare to venture a guess for that. In other heya closures we've seen no-hopers continue and decently talented kids quit, so it's almost definitely a much more personal decision than just "do I still see myself making it big?" I'll just say that zero retirements would surprise me.

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Looks just like one of the regular tabloid articles which appear on this subject for months now - no mention of this in any of the serious papers so far. The author has a column in the Bunshun tabloid related sports journal https://number.bunshun.jp/list/author/飯塚さき

Earlier articles have pointed out that a big part of the rikishi don't want to be in a heya together with Michinoku. If he stays in the NSK and joins Otowayama-beya, likely not many will go there.

Edited by Akinomaki
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This whole discussion makes me wonder how often we have an Ozeki with nothing higher than a lower makushita as the 2nd highest ranker in the stable!!!   

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56 minutes ago, shimodahito said:

This whole discussion makes me wonder how often we have an Ozeki with nothing higher than a lower makushita as the 2nd highest ranker in the stable!!!   

I don't know if it's common, but Mitakeumi and Shodai were ozeki a year-ish ago, and as far as I can tell, they didn't have any other sekitori around. Shodai has Tokihayate now, but he didn't make juryo until after Shodai dropped. Hard to see if they had anyone who retired in the last year or so, though.

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19 minutes ago, Sumo Spiffy said:

I don't know if it's common, but Mitakeumi and Shodai were ozeki a year-ish ago, and as far as I can tell, they didn't have any other sekitori around. Shodai has Tokihayate now, but he didn't make juryo until after Shodai dropped. Hard to see if they had anyone who retired in the last year or so, though.

And of course, there's Hakuho for much of his career.

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22 minutes ago, Sumo Spiffy said:

I don't know if it's common, but Mitakeumi and Shodai were ozeki a year-ish ago, and as far as I can tell, they didn't have any other sekitori around. Shodai has Tokihayate now, but he didn't make juryo until after Shodai dropped. Hard to see if they had anyone who retired in the last year or so, though.

Shodai had Yutakayama.

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22 hours ago, Muhomatsu said:

Rikishi will be asked what stable they want to join.  
 

all per an interview in this article 

https://news.yahoo.co.jp/expert/articles/da77cdf7badf15726b9e58372458eea1b51093d3

In case the article is right and this is what is going on at the moment, it is almost impossible to tell where the rikishi will go if they can choose a heya from outside the ichimon.

If the options are limited to the Tokitsukaze group, Kirishima still has three interesting stables to choose from (Oitekaze, Tokitsukaze, Arashio) which could provide a very competitive training environment; plus the benefit of not facing the heya's sekitori during a honbasho (given that they compete at the top). Regarding the lower rankers: Except for Kamitani, they don't strike me as prospects (Makushita level the maximum) at all, so they might be looking for a stable where they feel comfortable and veterans like Kirimaru might even consider retirement rather than moving to a different place.

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2 hours ago, Raishu said:

In case the article is right and this is what is going on at the moment, it is almost impossible to tell where the rikishi will go if they can choose a heya from outside the ichimon.

If the options are limited to the Tokitsukaze group, Kirishima still has three interesting stables to choose from (Oitekaze, Tokitsukaze, Arashio) which could provide a very competitive training environment; plus the benefit of not facing the heya's sekitori during a honbasho (given that they compete at the top). Regarding the lower rankers: Except for Kamitani, they don't strike me as prospects (Makushita level the maximum) at all, so they might be looking for a stable where they feel comfortable and veterans like Kirimaru might even consider retirement rather than moving to a different place.

I'm wondering if there are still lingering problems (bullying, etc.) that will affect their decisions.  Otherwise, there are some tough decisions to be made.

Takeuchi is Bg at age 16; is he injured, or is he gone?

Nikko (22) is at CH Sd62; he might have a future in getting to Makushita.  Kirinohana (19) is at CH Jd52; also too young to give up.

Kamitani (21), Dainichido (30), and Yuki (34) have been in mid-to-upper Makushita within the last two years.  Especially for the older two, they may want to give it one more run at another heya.

Kirimaru (38) hasn't cracked Sandanme in 22 years.  Should he retire and write a cookbook?

 

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Maybe I'm making non-existent connections, but Kirishima's rise coincided with the arrival of Kakuryu at Michinoku-beya, and I'm sure I remember him giving credit to Kakuryu in an interview. Why would he not want to go with Otowayama-san now?

A lack of high-calibre heya-mates hasn't stopped him, and he can always go to rengo-keiko. Can't he go train at any stable that will have him anyway, ichimon or not? Or is it only yokozuna who can do that?

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2 hours ago, Yamanashi said:

Takeuchi is Bg at age 16; is he injured, or is he gone?

He's in Otowayama-beya now.

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2 hours ago, RabidJohn said:

Maybe I'm making non-existent connections, but Kirishima's rise coincided with the arrival of Kakuryu at Michinoku-beya, and I'm sure I remember him giving credit to Kakuryu in an interview. Why would he not want to go with Otowayama-san now?

A lack of high-calibre heya-mates hasn't stopped him, and he can always go to rengo-keiko. Can't he go train at any stable that will have him anyway, ichimon or not? Or is it only yokozuna who can do that?

Your thought is not off. If Kirishima really prioritizes a good shisho connection and he sees Kakuryu as a sort of mentor, maybe he would join Otowayama-beya exactly for that reason.

A lack of high-calibre heya mates defintetely hasn't stopped him, but maybe he would be even better with regular top training partners in his home stable? It is true that he can go on degeiko regularly, but this is also connected with commute and training under "guest status". Of course there are exceptions, e.g. Mitakeumi being a regular at Kasugano beya when Tochiozan, Tochinoshin and Aoiyama were all still active. It is just a short foot walk between these two stables and the lack of proper training partners at Dewanoumi basically "forced" him to go on keiko elsewhere. No wonder these three rikishi were among the first congratulators when Mitakeumi won his championships. AFAIK, they share a strong bond.

What can't be avoided is that he has to face all the top dogs as an Otowayama beya rikishi. As a newly found stable, it will probably take some time until Kakuryu will produce his first own sekitori.

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2 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

He's in Otowayama-beya now.

Ah, thanks.  He had a fusen on day 14 of Aki, so he's injured?

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14 hours ago, Raishu said:

What can't be avoided is that he has to face all the top dogs as an Otowayama beya rikishi. 

There are better 'tactical' heya choices, but is choosing to go to Tatsunami, Tokiwayama or Isegahama even an option for him?

Tatsunami would probably be the best choice for the long term. It'd end up like Kokonoe in the late 80s with 2 yokozuna, but Mongolian.

Edited by RabidJohn

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1 hour ago, RabidJohn said:

There are better 'tactical' heya choices, but is choosing to go to Tatsunami, Tokiwayama or Isegahama even an option for him?

Tatsunami would probably be the best choice for the long term. It'd end up like Kokonoe in the late 80s with 2 yokozuna, but Mongolian.

Is this even an option? I've always taken that rikishi from closed heyas can relocate only in other heyas of the same ichimon. Michinoku is Tokitsukaze, while Tatsunami is Dewanoumi (see this list).

Anyway, according to Wikipedia the Tokitsukaze ichimon has the following heyas, aside from Michinoku: Tokitsukaze (17 rikishi with Shodai and Tokihayate), Arashio (15 rikishi with Wakabros), Isenoumi (also 15 rikishi with Nishikigi), Oitekaze (20 rikishi with Daieisho, Tobizaru and 5 other sekitori), and of course now also Otowayama. By my understanding of heya transfer policies, Kirishima and his heya-mates can choose between those stables alone. On paper, the best choice would be Oitekaze (20 people, 7 sekitori, 2 in the joy including a certain troublesome Monkey). Arashio would likely come second best, with Wakamotoharu already in the joy and Wakatakakage likely to make a comeback. They are also fellow yotsu guys and probably a boon for Kirishima to polish his yotsu skills. Tokitsukaze and Isenoumi are roughly equivalent, although perhaps being a heya-mate to Shodai would avoid some chaos during tournaments. Finally, Otowayama is a newly established stable and its only boon is Kakuryu being the coach there. But, if Kirishima really made to Ozeki thanks to Kak, he'd perhaps stick with him nevertheless.

Edited by Hankegami
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Kirishima always goes to Tokitsukaze and often Arashio for degeiko, if not Otowayama, he'll likely moves there - but he is nearly termed an uchideshi of Kakuryu in tabloid articles and if Kirishima I goes to Otowayama, he'll definitely join him.

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I wonder if Kakuryu is going to try and recruit another Mongolian before Michinoku closes, if Kirishima does indeed decide to move to the other heya

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1 hour ago, WAKATAKE said:

I wonder if Kakuryu is going to try and recruit another Mongolian before Michinoku closes, if Kirishima does indeed decide to move to the other heya

Is he going to be able to get that guy ranked on the banzuke before Michinoku closes? What with the 1 year acclimatisation and all? 

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Next tabloid rumour - Weekly Post: http://www.news-postseven.com/archives/20240123_1935881.html - a bit outdated

Kirishima is likely to switch to Arashio-beya and the Onami-brothers, a favourite degeiko location of his - but that was till several basho ago, recently he rather went to Tokitsukaze-beya.

Kakuryu got Otowayama because Shikoroyama did his best to secure it for him as a means to restore Izutsu-beya - Kakuryu took his former Izutsu heya-mate Hagane and the tokoyama with him to his new heya - plus his uchi-deshi. Both Minato and Shikoroyama had switched to the Takanohana ichimon - the Otowayama kabu after the death of Takanonami went to Takanohana and then his ichimon member (the former)Onomatsu, Minato didn't get it for Ichinojo, Shikoroyama's effort did bear fruit.

Michinoku wants Kirishima to succeed, so he closes down the heya, to have it reopened by Kirishima after he retires.

Edited by Akinomaki
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I don't get the logic of the last bit, unless he means he wants Kirishima to go somewhere he can get good training partners without having to go on degeiko. 

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None of it makes any particular sense beyond the "these are the connections that a very simple-minded fan would come up with" level. Hagane and the tokoyama are there, it's totally meant to be a spiritual successor to Izutsu-beya! Everybody worked to get Kakuryu the Otowayama kabu for that specific reason! Let's just forget that until a month ago all the anonymous insiders said that the totally important reason for Kakuryu to get a kabu real soon was to be able to take over Michinoku-beya!

Edited by Asashosakari
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