Hatsu 2024 discussion (results)

[Jakusotsu 5,806]

Let's just say it wasn't easy for Churanoumi to lose that bout.

[Akinomaki 39,770]

1 hour ago, RabidJohn said:

Onosato's got a commanding presence on the dohyo and looks a very good bet for high rank.

He either will or won't get injured.

Like most high level amateurs, he already comes with quite a record of serious injury into ozumo. In Miyagino-beya he would be completely crippled at the end of the year, but Kisenosato actually puts into good use what he learned in the university study as oyakata, unlike Kotooshu (Naruto) - at Nishonoseki-beya I expect Onosato to last long enough to reach ozeki in a few years.

[Akinomaki 39,770]

Shonosuke is not the only higher gyoji in the way of the rikishi: today Kimura Yodo got run over by Kirishima

o oooo o o o o o o o oo o

[Koorifuu 886]

I appreciate Yodo's commitment to tidying himself up, calmly putting his hat and slippers back in place while the battle raged on across the dohyo.

EDIT: I'm watching juryo now; Kitanowaka channeled Anzai's spirit with that KO smack on Oshoma.

Edited January 20 by Koorifuu

[dingo 1,160]

5 hours ago, Seiyashi said:

Shōdai, apparently. Him dropping was just a long con to pad his mochikyūkin with a kinboshi. 

How could I forget about Shodai, the perennial next ozeki. 

[Leoben 121]

1 hour ago, Akinomaki said:

Like most high level amateurs, he already comes with quite a record of serious injury into ozumo. In Miyagino-beya he would be completely crippled at the end of the year, but Kisenosato actually puts into good use what he learned in the university study as oyakata, unlike Kotooshu (Naruto) - at Nishonoseki-beya I expect Onosato to last long enough to reach ozeki in a few years.

Are there any insider sources for this? I've seen it mentioned multiple times that Miyagino goes too hard on his guys while Nishonoseki is much more careful with their health, but in the case of Hakuoho it seems that it was a chronic problem that would need surgery eventually no matter what, and I think the other notable injuries among his men (Enho, Ishiura) either date back to before he took over, or were long term chronic issues. Not saying it isn't true, just curious to know more.

[Miyam 6]

2 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

Like most high level amateurs, he already comes with quite a record of serious injury into ozumo. In Miyagino-beya he would be completely crippled at the end of the year, but Kisenosato actually puts into good use what he learned in the university study as oyakata, unlike Kotooshu (Naruto) - at Nishonoseki-beya I expect Onosato to last long enough to reach ozeki in a few years.

Can you expand on what you mean?

As a former sportsman myself, I'm always taken aback at how few days off from rigorous physical training they seem to take, how is their bodies supposed to not eventually crumble under such constant strain?

[Kashunowaka 300]

2 hours ago, Hankegami said:

Do you mean that moment near to the ropes, almost to the end of the bout? I cannot see any easing from either of them, honestly. Sure, Bushozan was almost upright with that last push, but he started sidestepping immediately (and at a same time he also clutched Churanoumi's left arm). A big part was played by the tokudawara, which gave more room for Bushozan's feet to side-step. But there wan no pause that I could see (and I played it at the slowest pace to be sure). The sequence was: Bushozan is pushed to the bales > He goes forward for a counter-push but he's pushed back almost upright > He clutches Churanoumi's arm which was still against his chest pushing him, and side-steps > Churanoumi is pulled out balance and Bushozan counter-attacks.

Yes, I might be misjudging it. But I still have the feeling that Churanoumi thought he had it in the bag but didn't finish the job properly, so perhaps he's the one to blame rather than Bushozan. 

Speaking of this, did you watch Shiden - Shirokuma in juryo? In that case, Shiden *clearly* gives up and Shirokuma squats to put his opponent down - on the tawara, so the bout isn't technically over. Luckily Shiden didn't "restart" the bout, he stepped out shortly after.

[Yamanashi 3,724]

1 hour ago, dingo said:

How could I forget about Shodai, the perennial next ozeki. 

I swear, I knew from the start that Shodai was going to win that bout.  Who knows what goes on in that strange, cluttered mind, but in a bout like this he is fearless.

[Akinomaki 39,770]

21 minutes ago, Miyam said:

Can you expand on what you mean?

I'm referring to the injury records of Miyagino-beya - the retired ones, Enho, Hakuoho, Kiho, now Hokuseiho - going on with severe injury, aggravating it. Tenshoho will likely follow - the heya has the image of burning up its talents.

There was much speculation that Onosato wanted to join there, but he chose a long term perspective

On 23/03/2023 at 21:04, Akinomaki said:

Nishonoseki

thinks that if he can teach him what he did, Nakamura's future is something to look forward to. He doesn't want him to care for speedy promotions and to rather forge his body (which Nakamura pointed out as very important for him in December)

On 13/12/2022 at 13:36, Akinomaki said:

"First of all getting used to this (ozumo) world." "Without injury - I don't know how far I'll get, but I want to become a rikishi  others aim to become like."

Nishonoseki studied things to use for heya management at Waseda, Naruto pure sports science at Nittaidai ex-kotooshu-re-entered-university/

On 05/07/2020 at 18:36, Akinomaki said:

On 03/07/2020 at 19:29, Akinomaki said:

About his studies of sports management at Waseda university: "(Due to Corona) I can't go to the graduate school presently , 4 times a week, 3 hours a day I take remote classes. There's class work where I use excel. Rearing rikishi as well as how to go with (management of) a heya are some subjects of my research. Putting it together in a paper and making a presentation at the PC is what I also do."

Araiso is trying to apply the triple mission model "wins, funds, popularization" for sports top businesses, devised by his teacher Hirata, to rikishi and sumo-beya etc. http://www.nikkansports.com/battle/sumo/news/202007030000573.html

Some day we may find his graduation paper among the list of ideas for other sports for the model google_q=triple+mission+model

Google top find of a Waseda paper about the use of the model http://www.waseda.jp/student/shinsho/html/69/6919.html

araiso-activities/?do=findComment&comment=433959

I think I haven't posted his paper yet - Yutaka Hagiwara: Proposal：A New Management Style for SUMO Stables waseda.jp/tokorozawa/kg/doc/50_ronbun/2020/5020A317.pdf

[Bunbukuchagama 688]

3 hours ago, Koorifuu said:

I appreciate Yodo's commitment to tidying himself up, calmly putting his hat and slippers back in place while the battle raged on across the dohyo.

[Reonito 1,335]

1 hour ago, Kashunowaka said:

Speaking of this, did you watch Shiden - Shirokuma in juryo? In that case, Shiden *clearly* gives up and Shirokuma squats to put his opponent down - on the tawara, so the bout isn't technically over. Luckily Shiden didn't "restart" the bout, he stepped out shortly after.

This was definitely an unusual moment!

[Reonito 1,335]

51 minutes ago, Yamanashi said:

I swear, I knew from the start that Shodai was going to win that bout.  Who knows what goes on in that strange, cluttered mind, but in a bout like this he is fearless.

Teru gives up the inside position quite readily. Against most people, it's a trap that leads to kimedashi/kotenage etc, but Shodai is too big and strong to clamp, and he knows what to do when he gets inside.

[Kaitetsu 277]

2 hours ago, Akinomaki said:

the heya has the image of burning up its talents.

But, apart from Ishiura and Enho having way more time on the dohyo for injuries to show up.

Hakuoho had this injury since high school and, by my memory, Kiho and Hokuseiho hurt themselves on honbasho bouts by falling/being pushed in a weird way. How is that Miyagino’s, who battled many injuries and knows how tough it is, burning his own rikishi?

He is more traditional in training than Nishonoseki, sure. But has Hakuho really burn his own rikishi? Specially when he is giving them ample time to recover alongside doctors and such?

Naruto is really messing injury prevention at the stable tho, can’t argue there.

[dingo 1,160]

Amazing perseverance by Bushozan, hanging on Churanoumi's arm to avoid stepping out of the dohyo. There should be a technique named for that.

Myogiryuu pushed out Takarafuji surprisingly easily in a bout of the veterans. With the way it's going right now, perhaps only Tamawashi has a chance at kachikoshi amongst this group.

Onosato is quietly putting together a run that might end up taking him all the way to a ketteisen. Of course it's early to think about that, but there have been quite a few examples of makujiri surprises in the recent years. 

Endo seems quite badly injured or something. He's a shadow of his usual self. If this slump continues, juryo surely awaits. That would be something of a shocker since Endo has been a makuuchi mainstay basically forever. 

Kotonowaka rebounded well from his loss yesterday and was solid against Ryuden who is entirely able to pose serious problems to yotsu rikishi. Kotonowaka's still well on the path to ozeki this basho and with this kind of sumo it must be only a question of time. 

Hokutofuji should get a shiroboshi for oshidashi-ing the gyoji. 

Why am I not surprised that Shodai managed to pull another upset. Somewhere between all the layers of bad tachiais, lethargy, overreliance on last ditch tawara antics and everything else still hides an excellent rikishi. There's just no other explanation. 

[Reonito 1,335]

1 hour ago, Kaitetsu said:

Naruto is really messing injury prevention at the stable tho, can’t argue there.

Any idea what he's doing wrong? I'm genuinely curious to what extent specific practices contribute to injury rates, vs. just the nature of the sport.

[Benihana 1,901]

5 hours ago, dingo said:

How could I forget about Shodai, the perennial next ozeki. 

I see the kensho and mochikyūkin as compensation for comments like that.

[Kaitetsu 277]

24 minutes ago, Reonito said:

Any idea what he's doing wrong? I'm genuinely curious to what extent specific practices contribute to injury rates, vs. just the nature of the sport.

I have no idea what he is doing wrong, but Oshoma's shoulder, Oshoumi's shoulder and knee, (retired) Sakurai's both knees, etcetera. I accompany Naruto-beya for a while and his rikishi simply always seem to get hurt before or after basho and then go on to aggravate their injuries on a tournament. I don't know if they need either better taping or better training or both 

[Kaninoyama 1,694]

1 hour ago, Reonito said:

Any idea what he's doing wrong? I'm genuinely curious to what extent specific practices contribute to injury rates, vs. just the nature of the sport.

What's interesting is that in a documentary of him starting up his heya, he explicitly said that he was going to train his rikishi in such a way as to prevent injuries. His plan included copious servings of Bulgarian yogurt. 

He clearly needs to switch to Greek yogurt. 

Edited January 20 by Kaninoyama

[RabidJohn 1,663]

Someone needs to do a study into Bulgarian yoghurt making rikishi injury prone...

[bettega 427]

Kimura Yodo almost made Kirishima lose; he clearly looked at gyoji  when he was almost pushed out

[Bunbukuchagama 688]

1 hour ago, Kaitetsu said:

I have no idea what he is doing wrong, but Oshoma's shoulder, Oshoumi's shoulder and knee, (retired) Sakurai's both knees, etcetera. I accompany Naruto-beya for a while and his rikishi simply always seem to get hurt before or after basho and then go on to aggravate their injuries on a tournament. I don't know if they need either better taping or better training or both 

Well, this is all Oshoma's doing, apparently... 

[Asashosakari 18,786]

To provide a possibly balancing opinion about Miyagino-beya's injury woes - I don't think Hakuho is somehow burning up his prospects, or at least not doing so intentionally. I suspect it's more along the lines of either a) a recruiting issue in the sense that Hakuho likes to go for guys with unbridled warrior spirit who dismiss the idea that discretion can be the better part of valor sometimes, or b) having the greatest rikishi of all time as their coach subconsciously makes his deshi push themselves harder than their bodies can support, or c) some combination of the two.

[Seiyashi 4,071]

2 hours ago, Asashosakari said:

To provide a possibly balancing opinion about Miyagino-beya's injury woes - I don't think Hakuho is somehow burning up his prospects, or at least not doing so intentionally. I suspect it's more along the lines of either a) a recruiting issue in the sense that Hakuho likes to go for guys with unbridled warrior spirit who dismiss the idea that discretion can be the better part of valor sometimes, or b) having the greatest rikishi of all time as their coach subconsciously makes his deshi push themselves harder than their bodies can support, or c) some combination of the two.

I would even go further and say that they're burning less at Miyagino than they would have at other heya, since Miyagino of all stables have deeper pockets to pay for treatment thanks to Hakuhō.

Speaking of which, how are the medical bills of rikishi paid for?

[Kaninoyama 1,694]

Reading through Nishonoseki's grad thesis that Akinomaki kindly linked.

Interesting that the former Yokozuna identifies many of the traditional methods of training as problematic: i.e. having younger, less physically developed rikishi start out doing regular keiko sparring instead of focusing on building their bodies up and learning fundamentals first; emphasis on number of training bouts over any other aspect training, so that rikishi feel compelled to overtrain; and the fallacy of "healing injuries suffered on the dohyo on the dohyo." 

All of which lead to injuries and inevitable early retirement. 

Perhaps it's not an accident that his deshi have been thriving in the new modern sumo training environment he has created. 

Edited January 21 by Kaninoyama