Hatsu 2024 discussion (results)

[Octofuji 327]

2 minutes ago, hakutorizakura said:

Ok, everyone is praising Kaiju but no thanks to Shodai who woke him up?? 

And then went to sleep himself! To paraphrase John Cheese, it's not the dismal series of losses that gets you, it's these occasional flashes of brilliance.

[RabidJohn 1,665]

Terunofuji started his yusho interview with a deep and solemn bow to each side of the Kokugikan audience. I don't recall seeing that before - none of the usual waving and smiling.

He went on to speak with a great deal of humility, acknowledging his extended kyujo. 

He also encouraged Kotonowaka to train hard and aim for the next rank, which left me wondering if he believes the new ozeki-to-be is closest to getting the rope.

Kotonowaka has already dispelled the Kisenosato vibes I had in the first week by not choking, and he's now at least as close to promotion as Kirishima and Hoshoryu.

Edited January 29 by RabidJohn

[Morty 1,480]

21 minutes ago, RabidJohn said:

 

Kotonowaka has already dispelled the Kisenosato vibes I had in the first week by not choking, and he's now at least as close to promotion as Kirishima and Hoshoryu.

I've been thinking about Kisenosato and choking. I seem to remember him falling on his sword a lot, but how much of it was just that he had to beat the GOAT in order to triumph and that was unlikley about 75% of the time? Regardless, Kotonowaka doesn't seem to have the habit of choking and he doesn't have the GOAT in his way - he does have Terunofuji but if he's good enough he'll work out how to get past that, or Terunofuji will retire. 

[nelimw 80]

23 hours ago, Hankegami said:

Terunofuji's protracted dominance is troublesome, however. He just showed that no one is anywhere close to his level despite his bum knees and his hurting lower back. He often loses to some rank-and-file on his way to the Yusho, but never gives an inch to the top dogs. Now, we're going to have four Ozeki in a few days. Kirishima is 0-11, Hoshoryu is 0-10, the upcoming Kotozakura is 0-7. The only one with a few wins under his mawashi is 'ole reliable Takakeisho, who is himself 4-6 but just 1-5 in their last six encounters (but that win in itself gives some credit to the Hamster). Kotonowaka resisted well in the playoff, but he was also constantly on the defense. From the looks of it, we could not see a new Yokozuna for a while yet.

It's kinda funny to think about Onosho and Shodai having better records against Terunofuji than the Ozeki. He really has a mental next gear that he applies to those matches.

[Tsuchinoninjin 1,246]

4 hours ago, Morty said:

I've been thinking about Kisenosato and choking. I seem to remember him falling on his sword a lot, but how much of it was just that he had to beat the GOAT in order to triumph and that was unlikley about 75% of the time? Regardless, Kotonowaka doesn't seem to have the habit of choking and he doesn't have the GOAT in his way - he does have Terunofuji but if he's good enough he'll work out how to get past that, or Terunofuji will retire. 

When hakuho was around, I would suggest beating him was the easy part. You also had to not drop a single fight the first 12 days at least… 12 win yusho was rare.

 

[RabidJohn 1,665]

4 hours ago, Morty said:

I've been thinking about Kisenosato and choking. I seem to remember him falling on his sword a lot, but how much of it was just that he had to beat the GOAT in order to triumph and that was unlikley about 75% of the time? 

Hakuho represented only 1 loss in the worst case. The choking, IMO, was not hanging on to a lead when he had one.

The worst ozeki choke I ever saw, though, was Goeido handing Harumafuji that 11-4Y.

[Gurowake 3,921]

15 minutes ago, RabidJohn said:

The worst ozeki choke I ever saw, though, was Goeido handing Harumafuji that 11-4Y.

Kisenosato's choking in Kyokutenho's Yusho was pretty bad too.

[apraxin 56]

13 minutes ago, Gurowake said:

Kisenosato's choking in Kyokutenho's Yusho was pretty bad too.

it was a great match from the spectator perspective, but his final choke against Baruto to miss the play-off was almost unbelievable  

 

[Wakawakawaka 136]

What a rollercoaster this basho! So many peaks and valleys.

On the downside the plethora of injuries... of favorites (Takayasu, Hokutofuji, Hokuseiho) and 'key combatants' Takakeisho and Asanoyama. Then stalwart and much respected Takarafuji probably heading down to Juryo after 990(?) consecutive Makuuchi matches, the look on his face when he got that 9th loss said it all :(

But then the positives... Tyrannofuji arose from the fossil bed yet again, and once Shodai broke off his calcified crust, everyone was easy prey. Something is missing when there's no Yokozuna sumo (I suppose that would be Yokozuna sumo). Kotonowaka keeps leveling up his game, and now at level 33 will evolve into Kotozakura. Our 2 shinyu maku were certainly impressive (Shimazuumi reminds me a bit of Kotoeko, which is good because I miss the guy!), and Ura never fails to entertain, saving the Samoan drop as a grand finale :D, we've seen from him Samoan drop, side-Russian leg sweep, plenty of arm drags, maybe next basho he pulls out a tilt-a-whirl headscissors takedown?

 

[Reonito 1,335]

On 28/01/2024 at 10:53, Bunbukuchagama said:

We don't get to see it too often these days. Typically, it is attempted as a desperation move that fails and results in a quick loss.

Terunofuji's was so precise and decisive, Kotonowaka didn't even flinch.

Yup, it's easy to focus on Terunofuji's incredible physicality compared to pretty much everyone else, and forget his technical superiority.

[Reonito 1,335]

6 hours ago, Morty said:

I've been thinking about Kisenosato and choking. I seem to remember him falling on his sword a lot, but how much of it was just that he had to beat the GOAT in order to triumph and that was unlikley about 75% of the time? Regardless, Kotonowaka doesn't seem to have the habit of choking and he doesn't have the GOAT in his way - he does have Terunofuji but if he's good enough he'll work out how to get past that, or Terunofuji will retire. 

This one always comes to my mind: beat all the yokozuna and ozeki, lost to 3 maegashira (one of who, was, of course, Shodai!) Right after this he finally broke through.

[Bunbukuchagama 688]

3 minutes ago, Reonito said:

Yup, it's easy to focus on Terunofuji's incredible physicality compared to pretty much everyone else, and forget his technical superiority.

Actually, Kotonowaka didn't get overpowered this time around; he even resisted a bit when Terunofuji got his double-inside grip. Compare it to Kirishima getting tossed like a child...

[Reonito 1,335]

Just now, Bunbukuchagama said:

Actually, Kotonowaka didn't get overpowered this time around; he even resisted a bit when Terunofuji got his double-inside grip. Compare it to Kirishima getting tossed like a child...

The stated weight difference of about 30 kg certainly makes a difference if deployed effectively.

[Bunbukuchagama 688]

Just now, Reonito said:

The stated weight difference of about 30 kg certainly makes a difference if deployed effectively.

I am starting to have doubts regarding long term top-dog chances of Kirishima and Hoshoryu. I am not sure they will manage to continue to effectively resist full-sized opponents like Onosato and Atamifuji (and Kotonowaka himself). 

[Reonito 1,335]

4 minutes ago, Bunbukuchagama said:

I am starting to have doubts regarding long term top-dog chances of Kirishima and Hoshoryu. I am not sure they will manage to continue to effectively resist full-sized opponents like Onosato and Atamifuji (and Kotonowaka himself). 

They're both roughly Harumafuji's size, so it's doable, but it does require exceptional technical skills and high sumo IQ.

[Jakusotsu 5,815]

4 minutes ago, Reonito said:

They're both roughly Harumafuji's size, so it's doable, but it does require exceptional technical skills and high sumo IQ.

Like handling the karaoke remote well and simultaneously knowing when not to?

[RabidJohn 1,665]

2 hours ago, Bunbukuchagama said:

I am starting to have doubts regarding long term top-dog chances of Kirishima and Hoshoryu. I am not sure they will manage to continue to effectively resist full-sized opponents like Onosato and Atamifuji (and Kotonowaka himself). 

They both bigger than Chiyonofuji at his peak, they're both Mongolian, and they have time to improve.

I agree that Kotonowaka's going to make the task harder for them, but I don't believe Onosato's a threat yet, and Atamifuji needs to regroup first.

[yorikiried by fate 1,989]

5 hours ago, Wakawakawaka said:

Takarafuji probably heading down to Juryo after 990(?) consecutive Makuuchi matches

No, you are correct. And, more astonishingly yet, no absence and not even a single fusenpai.

[Leoben 121]

3 hours ago, Reonito said:

They're both roughly Harumafuji's size, so it's doable, but it does require exceptional technical skills and high sumo IQ.

They're both a bit bigger, 10-12kg according to their recent measurements, but they clearly lack his physicality and his speed, which I think is what allowed him to go h2h with much bigger guys consistently – aside from great technique and high IQ of course.

[Reonito 1,335]

1 minute ago, Leoben said:

They're both a bit bigger, 10-12kg according to their recent measurements, but they clearly lack his physicality and his speed, which I think is what allowed him to go h2h with much bigger guys consistently – aside from great technique and high IQ of course.

Yeah I remember him writing about how he had to make a step change in his training, including in the gym, to make Y

[Benevolance 2,478]

This was the best tournament I've watched in a few years. Terunofuji was on form. I especially liked that Kotonowaka seemed to get over his 'star struck' demeanour from the first fight against Terunofuji, and showed up for a good match in the yusho face off, and was trying to win it right until the end. Impressive fighting spirit. My money is that Kotonowaka makes Yokozuna before Kirishima, and does it before Terunofuji officially retires. 

[yorikiried by fate 1,989]

1 hour ago, Benevolance said:

 My money is that Kotonowaka makes Yokozuna before Kirishima, and does it before Terunofuji officially retires. 

It's that damn first yusho. Just ask Takayasu or any random Japanese boy starting from Tochiazuma's final one til The Days Of Befriending The Public Eye.

[Benevolance 2,478]

That's too true. But I thought Kotonowaka showed remarkable cool holding the lead for most of the tournament, and shook off his nerves for his second bout with Terunofuji. Further, if Terunofuji actually completes a second tournament before November, I'll be shocked. That leaves some 12-3 or 13-2 yusho up for grabs. Hopefully the OBSC gets together and sorts out which tournaments Kirishima wins and which ones Kotonowaka wins for maximum promotion value. 

[yorikiried by fate 1,989]

OBSC?! Please not so soon again. Anyway, I agree on Kotonowaka's mental progress. It's impossible to objectively verify, but I fancy myself to be very attentive in sensing psychological fortitude, or lack thereof. For me he ticks quite a few boxes on the plus side.

Re: Terunofuji: Then you might be shocked. His (declared?) goal is to reach the ten. If he feels that now is the time, he might return straight up in March.

Edited January 30 by yorikiried by fate

[RabidJohn 1,665]

11 hours ago, yorikiried by fate said:

His (declared?) goal is to reach the ten. If he feels that now is the time, he might return straight up in March.

He also said, somewhat tongue-in-cheek, that he was getting used to winning after extended absences.

I believe he will turn up for any basho he thinks he can win. That could be in March, but yusho no. 9 gives him a fair bit of leeway if his condition isn't good enough.